Should there be consequences or discipline?

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Chronos I think it depends on the child. Some Aspies might be able to bounce back after hearing that threat, others may have felt their trust in their family was irreparably damaged. Unless the father actually genuinely meant he was going to kick him out, I think apologizing is the right thing to do. Not because his son has AS, but because a) his son may be the type of young person who would be profoundly hurt by that threat, and b) because if he didn't mean it, he shouldn't have said it. We all should apologize for saying things we don't mean in the heat of the moment.

I have been struggling with this issue lately too except it is with my 5 yo ASD son which I guess is a bit off the OPs topic. DS has improved in so many ways that I really hate to complain but lately we have had several instances where he has hit, kicked or bit me. I believe that I am the only one he has been aggressive with in a very long time. Last year at pre-school he got sent home on more than one occasion for biting his teacher. Thankfully, he has not had one episode of that this school year. Recently we were at the playground and I had to physically remove him from a piece of equipment becasue A) I could see he was getting overwhlemed and B) several other kids were waiting to play on it. I tried talking him down but he was too far gone to make a good choice so I told him that I would have to make him get off and I proceeded to peel him away. I knew that he was going to react badly and I tried to protect myself but his hands got free and he whacked me hard right in the side of my head. It brought tears to my eyes (for more than one reason). I then just got him as far away from the other kids as I could and tried to help him calm down. I later related this situation to a friend who also has a kiddo on the spectrum and she asked me what do I do for discipline in a case like this. Well, I was speechless. I told her I didn't discipline him at all because it was clear to me he wasn't in control of himself. She seemed surprised.

Now the above situation is clear to me, he wasn't in control and no discipline would change the outcome in a future similar situation. But there have been several other times lately when he is does not appear to be overwhelmed or out of control and I am just trying to get him to do things we typically do, wash his hands before dinner, brush his teeth, get dressed... and he bites me, hits me or calls me an idiot. I am not worried so much for myself, although I would really like to have him reduce these behaviors, I am more worried about next year when he starts public school kindergarten and he interacts with adults who are not nearly as understanding as the staff at his pre-school are. What is going to happen is he hauls off and hits one of the recess aides or the lunch lady? He currently seems to be able to control these reactions with other people and seems to be saving them just for me, but I am worried. How can I get him to stop lashing out at me?

Hello there

I think that I should weigh in on the discussion here:

Before we get into this, it is important to first differentiate between discipline, and punishment. This topic deals primarily with discipline (as stated in the title), but due to the vagaries of English, clarification should be made. Punishment is harassment (or other unwanted reprisal) done with the intent of vengeance or making an example. I.E. I am going to make him miserable to get back at him for what he did to me. Punishment really serves no purpose other than to make the victim feel better. Conversely, discipline is done with the intent of teaching. Discipline comes from the same root word as disciple (one who learns). And is commonly used in the phrase self-discipline (meaning putting into practice what you have learned). So, ultimately, if your goal is to discipline somebody, your goal is to teach them. So, why do I bring this up if 99% of people already understand it? Simply put, while people understand it in theory, it seldom gets thought through thoroughly into practical application.

For example, when my cousins were younger (ages 3 and 4 at the time) I saw my 4 year old cousin run up to his brother, push him over, take his toy, and then walk off. My 4 year old cousin saw no problem with this. In his mind, he wanted the toy, he got the toy, and that was it. He didn't take into consideration how his brother would react, what was wrong with his actions, or what the consequences of his actions might be (sad brother). Because at his age, he simply didn't know that that action was wrong. In that situation, discipline (timeouts) is used to teach the child that a particular action is wrong. The intent is not to get back at him, but to make him understand the correlation between his actions, and the problems that are caused. In other words, it teaches the child that their are consequences for their actions, and they have to be mindful of the consequences.

Likewise, say you have a child who isn't doing something that they don't want to do because they don't understand the importance of it. For example, your child doesn't want to brush his teeth or something like that. In this case, discipline may be necessary to teach your child the importance of said action. Waiting for the consequense of their actions (teeth rotting out) may be effective at teaching them the importance of brushing, but it is easier on everybody to simply harass the child lightly until compliance, for his own benefit. As such, we can see a common theme, in that discipline is used as a tool to teach the child that their actions have consequences.

So, this brings us to the question, how is disciplining your son going to teach him anything? In the case of my 4 year old cousin, discipline would teach him that knocking somebody over and stealing their toy isn't appropriate. And that is a good lesson for my 4 year old cousin to learn because he didn't know it yet. Likewise, disciplining a child in order to get them to pick up their toys, brush their teeth, etc. teaches them that while certain activities aren't fun, they are still necessary. In other words, it teaches them to set priorities.

But in your situation, what would discipline teach? If we look at Kailuamom's example. Did the discipline teach her son that hitting isn't acceptable? My guess is no, her son already knew that lesson. Did the discipline teach the child the importance of dealing with problems with words instead of violence? Again, my guess is no, her son was already well aware that violence wasn't a good idea, and he didn't want to resort to it. In short, the discipline didn't teach him anything. It was just a way of telling him, 'OK, don't make any mistakes or else'.

And in the case of the opening post. How is discipline going to teach your child anything? Do you think the concept of 'treat other people with respect' confuses him? Do you think he doesn't understand the importance of respect? What lesson exactly are you trying to get across that your son doesn't already know?

You see, a common (sadly common) problem that many autistic people face is that it is assumed that all of their problems are merely the result of them not working hard enough. It is assumed that they don't control their emotions because they aren't working hard enough. They don't put forth effort in school because they aren't working hard enough. They don't act normal because they aren't working hard enough. They are having problems with peers because they aren't working hard enough. They are having meltdowns because they aren't working hard enough at preventing them. They aren't acting their age because they aren't working hard enough. And so forth, and so on. And when the child is presumed to be 'not trying hard enough' the solution is to try and discipline them in order to teach them the importance of trying harder.

Now in limited cases (usually when the child is young and hasn't faced much discipline), a lack of effort can be partially responsible. But in the vast majority of cases (especially with older children), the problem isn't a lack of trying hard enough. The problem isn't a lack of willpower or effort. The problem is that the child doesn't have the necessary skill set, or ability to do what is being asked of them. And when they get discipline for 'not trying hard enough' when they are trying as hard as they can, yet failing due to a lack of abilities and skills, then all you do is make the child disenchanted, angry, stressed out, and bitter.

So, to answer the original question, "Should there be consequences or discipline?" My answer is of course, yes. Every action has consequences, and you have to deal with the consequences. When I spill my drink, I have to pick it up. When I offend somebody by accident, I have to apologize, when I make a mistake, I have to rectify that mistake. Telling your child to deal with the consequences of his actions is not unfair or mean. It is simply letting them know that what they do affects others. Likewise, should there be discipline? Of course, yes. In that you should always make an attempt to teach the child when things aren't going well. When there is a problem, what better time to teach?

But when you asked that question, I don't think that is what you meant. More likely your question actually is, "Should I do something to my child that he doesn't like in an effort to force compliance?" And to that, I have to answer no. To me, it sounds like your son is simply lacking the necessary skills to control his emotions. It sounds like he is allowing his emotions to get out of control, and you are all dealing with the problems it causes. What your child needs in this situation is to learn the skills of emotional control. Not be harassed for having yet to master a skill he doesn't know how to do.

To that end, I would do some reading about meltdowns, and stress management. I know I plug my book fairly often, but thats because its a good read. I encourage you to go get a copy at ASDstuff.com. It is aimed primarily at the parent who is new to the diagnosis and confused, so some of it may not apply to you directly. But a good bit of it is things like how to understand, appreciate, predict, and prevent meltdowns. And that is definitely what your son needs help with. So, I would advise you to read the book, I would advise you to recommend it to your son so he can read the book, and I would recommend that you both start looking for ways to help him learn how to properly identify, understand, and control his emotions before his emotions wind up controlling and sabotaging him. Because learning how to control his emotions will help your situation far more then harassing your child for not acting the way you want him to will.



On a related note to Kailuamom. I have no objection to the use of motivational rewards. After all, I wouldn't go to work if I wasn't getting paid for it. But the key when using rewards is that they provide motivation to get the child to do something they wouldn't do otherwise. And this can be a useful tool in teaching your child how to deal with certain things. For example, say he hits somebody in the heat of the moment. Well, that was the wrong thing to do, but you can't change the past. What you can do however, is use the motivational rewards to encourage your son to make amends. Get him to apologize, and settle the problem in a mature fashion. After all, you can't motivate somebody into no longer making mistakes. But you can motivate them to rectify the mistakes, and you can motivate them to learn how to prevent mistakes like that in the future.

I would suggest a new house rule: Nobody comes over to the house while you and your husband are away.

These "kids" are all adults. None of them needs to be hanging around while you're out of town, especially an ASD teenager who can be easily manipulated into a meltdown by older step-siblings that don't particularly like him.

Tracker - I agree that rewards are good for getting someone to do something they don't want to do. For instance, with my DS, homework. The rub for us is, sometimes that stuff he doesn't want do causes stress and that is cumulative. So the rewards become so important that he does stuff (that he's supposed to) and the stress builds and builds. He is so scared of losing these stupid points or rewards that he has had two very frightening meltdown episodes that included hallucinations. The school told me he had a psychotic episode and I was beside myself. I went to the neurologist and showed him a moment of video from one of the episodes and he said it wasn't psychotic rather dis associative. Meaning that when he ran out of the ability to cope, his brain literally disacssociated from reality. Very bad sign about what is happening for my son.

The interesting thing is that from an NT perspective, there really aren't any harsh demands being made. Its all pretty easy stuff.

At least for me the big motivators are great for really getting to the bottom of the question can they or can't they do something. Unfortunately that knowledge comes at an unpleasant cost.

Cant wait until my Autie is 6'2", 90Kgs and Angry

I am in favour of using discipline with Aspies, even if it's harder for them, even if they don't realise something seemingly obvious about what they're doing. There's no need to moddycoddle them just because they have Aspergers, especially over stuff which causes trouble.

I.e.
If a child is very fussy with food because of sensory issues (rather than the NT kid just not liking it), you can ask them to describe how it feels and if it doesn't feel like razor blades and doesn't have them vomiting and sweating, then just give it to them anyway. Sometimes you have to break behaviours. I was a very fussy eater, but I ate what my parents gave me or I went hungry. Simple. I'm not dead, I still don't like some foods but I can deal with it, I now like a lot of the stuff I used to hate, and my parents didn't pander to me and given into what was usually a temporary thing.

But-

If a child hates a certain noise, don't keep playing it to them to get them used to it. My parents won't let me wear earbuds to meals, but about a third of our quarrels at the table are caused by me being so on edge because of all the noise and eventually slapping the table in real anger. Trying to solve things like that isn't the answer.

Chronos, I would completely agree with your advice to any other parent except me! It's great advice, it's tough love. The trouble is, when you're dealing with your own flesh and blood, there's that annoying little emotional connection you have with them which means you aren't always logical or even consistent. I suspect that love with my son is pretty much one sided as is the bond. The fact that he didn't go ahead and hit his sister was a win for us. It meant that at least he cares more about being able to stay at home than he wanted to hurt his sister.

When it's your own kid, and you know that you'd be kicking him out of the house with no job, no money and no friends to rely on, when he's also clinically depressed and suicidal, it makes more sense for me as a parent to keep him at home, despite his behaviour, and move his younger sister out with her older sister, which we did about 6 months ago. The house is a much calmer place, and while he's not moving forward, he's not getting any worse right now either.

daedal - I used discipline with great success when my children were little, but how do you use discipline with them when they've become adults? The best thing his father and I can do is to communicate to him how his behaviour effects other people, and tell him it isn't acceptable to do/say the inappropriate thing. Whether he decides to take that on board is largely up to him. I don't know how to do this any better.

I had some appointments with him and the psychiatrist, where we both pointed out to him that if he doesn't shower, he smells, and makes the house smell, even if he can't smell it himself. I even went so far as to not use deodorant for a couple of days and give him a sniff of my armpit as evidence for how if you don't use it and shower, you do actually smell. He only believed that after I proved it. He couldn't smell himself. (lol - I'm sorry, this is probably too much information, and when I think about how ridiculous this would be to read for someone who doesn't understand.. ) He made a contract with the psychiatrist and me that he would shower at least 3 times a week, and apply deodorant every day, but by the time we'd got home, he'd changed his mind and decided that this was a breach of his civil liberties. Nothing I could do or say would convince him to take a shower. You know, I'm beginning to think I gave him far too much empowerment when it comes to his rights, if that's possible. He just doesn't care what we think or what we say in lots of situations. I've tried every angle, including asking him why he doesn't want to shower, and his answer was that he doesn't like getting wet. He doesn't like the smell of deodorant, so I bought an unscented one, and he doesn't like the initial "sticky" feel in his armpits. What do you do??

^^ Anni - I think you've just described how my son will be when he reaches puberty. Scary.

I think ALL teenagers (and children, for that matter) decide at some point that the things adults want from them are assaults on their civil liberties...but none of them have an understanding that there are consequences to these decisions in real life.

Take deodorant, for instance: you're his Mom. You're not going to throw your son out of the house because he's stinky...but his future roommates might. His future boss might not hire him, or might fire him (in some jobs, for instance food service, good personal grooming is a required job skill.) While stinkiness is definitely a cultural issue, it has consequences nonetheless. Yes, it's his right to decide for himself (when he's out in the world) how stinky he wants to be...but the rest of the world has equal right to respond in a variety of ways. (Note that this issue comes up in the move Temple Grandin.)

To me, consequences are necessary to prepare our children for what they're going to meet when they are on their own. I don't apply consequences with the idea that I'm going to change my son's behavior with them, and I try to make the consequences as reasonable as possible...but if my son continues to handle his frustration by punching people in the nose, he's going to wind up in jail, disability or not. Police officers are not going to say "he can't help it, he has Asperger's" when he's an adult. He needs to be vigilant in preventing himself from getting to the nose-punching point, and he needs to know there are negative results for hurting people.

I know he's not in control, and we've worked very hard to make sure that the negative results are understandable, consistent, and not so severe that he gives up on the whole thing and goes with his impulses. I know this is controversial on this board - but it has worked for us in this high-stakes situation.

I have no idea how you apply this to things that are, in the scheme of things, less serious, but I do think there's a place for consequences - however, IMO, they are not really a way to change behavior, more a way to illustrate how such things are handled outside of the home. (I assume you've tried spray-on and powder deodorants?)

momsparky - you have my complete agreement, and yeppers.. tried every type of deodorant there is that I have been able to find. I have won the teeth brushing battle! Well I didn't win it, tooth ache did, which is the natural consequence of not brushing your teeth. I had a boy once when I was fostering who was also very reluctant to shower, and that changed when he developed a fungal infection all over his chest and back. However, my son has really good skin, no acne or any other issues. I pray for a fungal infection! (lol)

In Australia, it's compulsory to vote, and once you turn 18, you're obliged to register to vote, and not voting will get you a fine, and if you can't pay the fine, theoretically you can end up going to jail. I've explained all this to my son, but he will not register to vote. I've even told him that he doesn't actually have to vote for anyone on the piece of paper, but just go to the voting and have his name ticked off the electoral list, but he refuses to do this. He emphatically tells me that it is against his principles to vote and he does not believe in our country's compulsory voting laws. I guess this is even a more serious matter than showering and using deodorant. I've told him that I won't pay the fine for him if he gets busted as not registered, and he says he doesn't care. I have a friend who works as a corrections officer, and I've asked him whether it would be possible for John to have a tour of the jail so he can see what the potential consequences of not registering to vote might be, but I'm worried the structure and routine and hierarchy will actually appeal to him!

This post has me thinking about my parents, who handle their Aspergers by deciding they are right and everyone else is wrong (they sound a bit like your son, but they are in their eighties.) They found each other, at least (although they don't really like each other,) but they are mostly isolated - unhappily so - because of all their intolerances and quirks. For instance, whenever they lose a friend or are barred from another social group, it's the friend or social group's fault, not theirs.

While we have a much better understanding of autism now, along with a lot more tolerance for quirks, I can see where this is a danger to some people on the spectrum (fortunately, my own son seems to be far less rigid than my parents are.) What to do about it, I don't know...