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katzefrau
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10 Sep 2012, 9:03 pm

angelgarden wrote:
InThisTogether wrote:
katzefrau wrote:
Based on responses now I'm not clear on whether the point here is to help your son understand, or to knock down his ego. Parents, do you understand that when your children have meltdowns it isn't because they're deliberately oppositional?


You are making assumptions about me and my kids that are completely irrelevant here. My kids are nowhere near meltdown when these conversations occur, nor are they oppositional, deliberately or otherwise. They are simply walking around the house complaining that this and that is "not fair" and failing to recognize the fact that there are many things in life that are truly not fair. Going to bed at 8:30 while I stay up until 10 is really not one of them. Were they anywhere near meltdown, the very last thing I would be doing was trying to rationalize with them.

I think "appalled" is a strong and unfair word and it is pretty blatantly judgmental. As I said, it works with my children. And the reason it works is because it fits into their "logic" scripts. It does not lead to a meltdown. It actually restores order. I offered it up, in case someone else's kids are like mine.


Agreed. (Same here.) I do not use this logic if my son is in meltdown. It is when he is in complain mode.


I didn't mean to offend anyone here. I don't always realize the impact of my words, believe it or not.

angelgarden wrote:
And that sometimes we do things that are necessary, though perhaps not our first choice.


I would not have reacted to this. This is an explanation.

"life isn't fair" or similar sounds like a retort. (to me)

as a child I didn't really get anything my parents told me when it was told in a "because I'm your parent" or similar fashion. I thought that was what was being suggested, a demand that the child respect the authority of the parent rather than giving an explanation. apologies..

I should have more eloquently proposed that AS children might not necessarily understand authority or respond well to parents being assertive if an explanation for the rules is not given. The type of "equating" that is being called a logic script here ("It's also not fair that some kids do not have enough to eat, a home to live in, or shoes that fit their feet.") does not explain why the child can't do something, it just says that other people also have problems that are unfair. A child might not interpret this as logic, but as an example of how the world is too unfair, which could upset the child.



ASDMommyASDKid
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10 Sep 2012, 9:32 pm

katzefrau,

I agree with you, that if the only thing that is said is, "life is unfair," that it does sound like a non-answer, like "because I said so." I do not think (most of us on here, anyway) use the phrase like that. It is a way to describe some of what happens in the world, though.

Sometimes you can explain your reasons, the best you can,in multiple ways, even, and to a child it is still unfair. At that point there is not much else to say than, ",I know you think this is unfair, but ..."

For example, what if I planned something fun with my child, but then we could not go because I got sick and am now unable to take him. My son would think that is unfair, as he did nothing wrong and does not think he should have to be "punished" because I am sick. To me it is a logistical thing, to him it is an unfair punishment. If "Mommy would love to take you, but I can't because I am sick. Let's do it next weekend," doesn't work then what do I say? I would tell him (honestly) that he did nothing wrong, sometimes life is unfair, and that I did not intend to be sick, and it is yucky for me too.

So, if you explain something like bedtimes, and you have a little one who does not understand or accept your arguments about what is necessary for his health and well-being, sometimes that is what we are left with. It does not mean we did not try to give real reasons. Sometimes our reasons do not click, or the child does not want to accept our reasons.

But, yes I do agree that sometimes parents do rely on "Because, I told you so." and "Life is unfair, so too bad." because they cannot articulate their reasons, or are lazy. Based on what I have read here, most of the parents on the parent board know that aspies usually respond better to logic, and actively try to avoid non-answers whenever possible. It is just with the little ones, especially, it does not always work. :)



katzefrau
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10 Sep 2012, 10:26 pm

well said.


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cubedemon6073
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11 Sep 2012, 5:02 pm

Quote:
It's also not fair that some kids do not have enough to eat, a home to live in, or shoes that fit their feet


If someone told me this as a child I would come back at them and ask why don't some kids have enough to eat, a home to live in, or shoes that fit their feet? This explanation would not work for me.



InThisTogether
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11 Sep 2012, 5:57 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Quote:
It's also not fair that some kids do not have enough to eat, a home to live in, or shoes that fit their feet


If someone told me this as a child I would come back at them and ask why don't some kids have enough to eat, a home to live in, or shoes that fit their feet? This explanation would not work for me.


Then I guess it is a good thing you were not my kid! :wink:

My kids do have a rudimentary understanding of poverty.


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cubedemon6073
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12 Sep 2012, 5:36 am

InThisTogether wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Quote:
It's also not fair that some kids do not have enough to eat, a home to live in, or shoes that fit their feet


If someone told me this as a child I would come back at them and ask why don't some kids have enough to eat, a home to live in, or shoes that fit their feet? This explanation would not work for me.


Then I guess it is a good thing you were not my kid! :wink:

My kids do have a rudimentary understanding of poverty.


I did have a rudimentary understanding of poverty but I would want to know why it is allowed to exist?



LtlPinkCoupe
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14 Sep 2012, 2:50 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
InThisTogether wrote:
They are simply walking around the house complaining that this and that is "not fair" and failing to recognize the fact that there are many things in life that are truly not fair. Going to bed at 8:30 while I stay up until 10 is really not one of them. Were they anywhere near meltdown, the very last thing I would be doing was trying to rationalize with them.

I posted the next paragraph in another thread from a while back, and it's copied from there verbatim. Basically, kids are afraid of missing something great when the go to bed.

First, interior designers come in, and put up balloons, paper garlands, Christmas lights, and cardboard cut-outs of cartoon characters. Then, caterers show up, and drop off boxes of piping hot pizza, many different cakes, huge baskets of candy, and crates of soda and fruit punch. Third, costumed actors arrive. Fourth, a delivery worker drops off a big box of goody bags for everybody. Lastly, animals trainers arrive, bringing with many puppies and kittens with them. After that, the party begins! All the adults and older siblings pig out on junk food, pet the cute animals, and joke around with the actors. Then, one actor turns off the lights, leaving the room bathed in an ethereal colorful glow from the Christmas lights, and an amazing show begins, the one that makes Christmas morning pale in comparison. The party lasts all night, with everybody smiling the whole time. By morning, the actors and the animal trainers say their goodbyes and leave. A cleanup crew stops by, to eliminate all evidence of the party, making sure absolutely nothing gets left behind. The home once again looks just like it did the night before; not even a trained forensics officer would know there was a party just an hour earlier.

Meanwhile, your son is asleep, alone in a dark, quiet, empty room, with only his stuffed animals to keep him company.

I did not make up the scenario myself. I read it in a parenting article online, although their scenario involved magicians and talking animals, rather than employees. (I changed it to make it easier to visualize for an aspie audience, who may find magic less intriguing than NTs.) But the concept remains the same: a child does not want to miss a really fun event just because he's not allowed to stay up and attend it. And being excluded from this party just because of his age is just that: unfair.


I do so love the hypothetical scenario you came up with! It captures the sentiments perfectly. :D

I would like to offer another perspective on this - perhaps reluctance to go to bed before the parents could be related to some kind of anxiety, and not necessarily the fear of missing out on something fun. That was what it was like for me. I can remember one time when I was at my grandparents' house in Minnesota with my mom, stepfather, and younger half - sisters. I was about 7 - 9 years old at the time. My sisters and I were sent up to bed, and while my sisters fell asleep in their respective beds right away, I lay awake for awhile. For some reason, even though I knew my grandparents' house was a safe environment, and had a couple of my favorite stuffed animals with me, I was feeling slightly anxious. I wondered what my parents, aunt, and grandparents were doing downstairs, and strained to listen....I could hear nothing (the upstairs was pretty soundproof). I don't remember how I arrived at this conclusion, but I reasoned that everyone else in the house had abandoned my sisters and I and were never coming back (I had serious abandonment issues when I was a kid), and I went running dowstairs to the kitchen in tears, and much to my relief, all the grownups were sitting at the kitchen table playing cards. They hadn't all left after all.

"I thought you all had left us; I couldn't hear you at all upstairs....why weren't you all making noise so I could hear you?" I wept. "Why, we weren't making any noise so you could sleep, darling," my mother reassured me. I'd much rather they had been making a racket than have to lie in bed racked with anxiety over being abandoned by everybody. Regardless, I accepted that, went back upstairs, and fell asleep soon after.

I don't know if this is helpful at all; I just wanted to offer a different perspective.


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