Can't decide-- Fight for mainstream, or Homeschool

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the opt out of testing is a way for schools to avoid being accountable for education special needs students

Hmm.... maybe they'd want to gamble on him them, as when he DOES actually do tests, he usually gets 100% or close to. When he gets less than 100% it's typically not because he didn't understand, but because of some other issue like missing a problem on the page. I know at our school they are switching to computer testing for everyone... so by the time he has to do the STAR testing next year, it will all be computerized and things like missing problems won't even be an option. He may do really well.

We also looked hard at the dysgraphia possibility but it doesn't seem to fit. Our private OT thought it was possible when she first met him, but then she realized that he only avoided writing for non-preferred tasks. His writing (when he is willing) is actually quite good. He just hates to do it, I think because it takes too long to get thoughts onto paper. You ask him to come up with a sentence and instead of 5 words, he has 25, and that's just too much to write, so he doesn't even want to try. We are starting him on keyboarding now and might try an Alphasmart for him in the classroom. He loves computers so the tech feel might appeal to him more than using a pencil. If they would just let him do his work orally there'd be no problem. I'm not sure why they are so averse to other ways for him to prove he has learned. It's like the price of admission to mainstream is not requiring accommodations. If they need to accommodate, they want everyone sent over to the SPED room at the other school. Even the RSP teacher was complaining the other day that they finally engaged him with a computerized reading about "energy" and he was really into it and was discussing it enthusiastically with her and clearly had mastered the concepts introduced by the lesson. But then when she tried to get him to write about it, he shut down. But why did she have to ruin it by asking him to write about it? Why wasn't talking about it good enough? She even admitted that she KNEW he had learned it, but that talking about it wasn't enough to "prove" it. Why not??

Yeah...

He is supposed to be in the least restrictive environment that is appropriate. That includes adaptations and modifications and whatever they need to make an otherwise appropriate placement work.

It sounds like they have a system in place designed to remove any ill-fitting cogs so that the mainstream experience runs smoother for those in it: admins, teachers, students et al. It is not that I don't have empathy for them wanting a smoother, less disrupted system, but it is not what the law says,, as I understand it.

Because they have already spent the money to put these alternative programs in place, that is where they want your son to go. It means less parent complaints, and less muss and fuss for them, if they don't have parents complaining about why your son can bail on things and their angel can't or whatever they deal with.

I vacillated back and forth between thinking it was a good thing we never had any specific autism programs, b/c on the one hand I think they would have even tried less hard to accommodate him. On the other, maybe a separate program would have been more forgiving and better equipped for him.

The SPED room here, is little more than babysitting they are legally mandated to do. There may have been some things I would have been able to make them do b/c of my son's IQ tests ,(things that all SPED students should be able to get without going through hoops); but generally SPED is used here as an excuse not to do much. There is no way, here, in SPED rooms to access the full range of academic programs available to the general school population. For us, it was make mainstream work or bail.

Do you have an educational advocate? I would suggest hiring one to help you push the use of keyboarding, reduced writing work, scribing oral answers (why isn't his 1:1 aide scribing for him?), getting a Functional Behavioral Analysis done (preferably by an ABA trained person rather than the school psychologist), and putting a Behavior Support Plan in place. Does his aide have ABA or behavior analysis training?

They might also be able to make a convincing argument that the SPED class is inappropriate, and help you find other options in your area (that the school district would pay for), such as a true HFA class or a non-public school.

The school could conceivably move him to the SPED class against your wishes, but you could then immediately file for due process and invoke the "stay-put" clause to keep him in the classroom while you went through the mediation and court system. They don't want to go there.

Disgraphia can be complicated, and exhibit in multiple forms.

Also, writing is a multi-task process, and anything multi-task is difficult for ASD kids.

Keep talking to him about WHY he shuts down, doing a situational autopsy for each time he has done it.

I would tell him that his answers to date are not enough to help you find solutions, and you MUST find solutions or he will not be allowed, by the school, to continue in that classroom at that school.

This is so frustrating because you know where he needs to be and yet there is this giant, impenetrable road block that keeps him from performing at capacity. Perhaps that is one way to talk about it with the school, in the hopes of getting them to accommodate by allowing verbal answers or scribing. There is no evidence that anything else about him is not capable of performing; it is that something sets off in him when asked to do WRITTEN work. I think he needs to be handled as if he is disgraphic, whether or not anyone can prove he is. Or at least try it. See if that can put a dent in the giant, impenetrable, road block.

At the same time, keep using the fact that he wants to be in school as the pry to get him to work harder on conforming. Give him a ton of empathy and then remind him that it simply the school's RULE and, thus, it has to get figured out. ASD kids usually understand the idea of rules.

This feels a bit been there, done that, except that everyone was able to agree my son was disgraphic and, thus, we got enough bend from the school to keep things from escalating as far as they have with you. It isn't like we solved it back then, but we definitely improved it to a manageable point.

We panicked about my son's test scores, but it turned out to be a non-issue. Even spelling turned out OK, and this kid can NOT spell. As long as they have enough people staying in to meet the required ratios, though, you can opt out. It could be worth asking them about.

Was your son like this since he started school?
It seems like the problem is not just about the school, but the most major problem is in the child's head, and the school is responding according to their goals like needing him to have success in the mainstream classroom or he can't be there.
So you really need to figure out how to get your son to do work without hours of sulking and without immediate rewards.
Does he like to learn in general?
How does he learn best?
Maybe he can't learn from worksheets, but how about hands-on?
If perfectionism is a problem, then that at least can be identified and worked on, how to produce work while pulling back on perfectionism, otherwise how can anyone get anything done, since it can't be perfect.
So perhaps it is best to look at the more fundamental problem that the school, which is your son being unwilling to do simple tasks when people ask him to do so.
I wonder if there is some problem in the motivational system that he can't get himself to do things without immediate reward.

Again, thank you everyone for taking the time to read & respond to this... I have a really hard time judging when I'm being annoying and I know I can be too wordy, so I really appreciate that people are making it through my long-winded explanations and then taking the time to write thoughtful responses... they have been very helpful.

I do think that a big issue for the school is that they want maximum efficiency and expect top performance from ALL their kids (they are an award-winning public school with very high test scores.) There are definitely some negatives to that, but some positives is that they work pretty hard to recruit good teachers and they have pretty much bent over backwards to try to help my son "succeed". They just aren't making much headway because none of the usual tricks seem to work with him. Even the behaviorist they sent over from the local autism center who was supposed to be some kind of miracle-worker seems to be completely fed up with him. I think she's used to solving problems and she hasn't been able to "solve" him.

The full-time segregated SPED class sounds like the one ASDMommy mentioned. It's like babysitting, or I guess more like a glorified study hall for disabled kids. I went and looked at it and it's not that it was a BAD room, or an evil room... it was actually a very NICE room as far as that kind of room goes. But to me it didn't seem like it would be of any more benefit to him that what he is already experiencing when he takes his pile of worksheets over to the resource room. So why send him over to the segregated room, at another school, which would also mean changing his status to full-time SPED, taking away the little meaningful instruction he DOES get right now (when he's not being kicked out to RSP), removing him from everything & everyone he's ever been exposed to as far as formal education goes, and for what? The off-chance that he might be more motivated to do boring worksheets in THAT room? It just doesn't make any sense. I mean, maybe if they would hire a full-time super-genius science nerd to be his personal tutor in that room, well, then I'd have to consider it. But even then I'd have serious reservations.

The scribing thing... it's confusing for me too. Right now, for homework purposes, I do scribe for him for some stuff, and then, if there's time before the packet is due at the end of the week, I bribe him to re-copy as much as he can stand to. The thing that is tricky, is that he will sort of abuse any opportunity to be more lazy, that is offered to him. So whenever we try to do things to address his frustrations, we undermine the things we are trying to do to make him less lazy about everything (and yes, he IS lazy... please don't scold me for saying it... as his mom, I can see the clear difference between when he is struggling with things that he can't help, vs. not doing things because he's not going to put in any effort if he can just get someone ELSE to do it.) And so the scribing thing is a very slippery slope for this... when we first suggested dictation as a way to just get *something* on paper at school, when things started to go downhill, he jumped at it, and suddenly he didn't even want to write his own name on his papers. Because he now had his personal assistant to do that FOR him. It actually sort of pissed me off, because I know him, and there is NO issue for him with writing his own name. None. He really takes advantage of stuff. I think they feel the same way at school-- that they are reluctant to allow him to dictate a lot of stuff, because it's like they are giving into the spoiled kid at the grocery store who is melting down over wanting a candy bar. As his mom, I can be a bit more insightful about what's going on in the moment, like I can encourage him to write something himself if I know he's up to it... or to back off if I know I'm more likely to get results just letting him do the work orally. They aren't as good at that at school. They want to choose one way and then stick to that, and they'd rather NOT have it be an accommodation, so if there's this glimmer that MAYBE he might just "come around" they want to keep pushing for that. But then they just complain, complain, complain when that fails to happen.

I like the idea of presenting it as the school "RULE" that he must do his work. I've pretty much said that to him, but not using that exact word for it. He certainly does have the Aspie "rules must be followed" thing. He's one of those kids who polices OTHER kids for not following the rules, while failing to understand that the "rules" those kids were "breaking" were not actually hard-and-fast rules in the first place (or that it's not his job to police them).

Was he like this from the beginning of school? Yes. He has never enjoyed doing seat-work. In Kindergarten he would sit there and just screw around with the materials (play with the glue & scissors) but not actually make the thing they were supposed to be making. He wouldn't sit there and practice writing his letters and numbers. He wouldn't participate in the group-chant reading and counting. In 1st grade, when the academics and seat-work REALLY ramped up, that's when he just totally started to "opt out". In Kindergarten he would make more of a "show" of his displeasure (ripping holes in his work or crumpling it up) but in 1st grade he'd just leave it blank. Same thing now-- just reams of blank papers coming home, or just his name on them and nothing else.

He DOES like to learn. In fact that's one reason this all took us by surprise when he started school. He loves learning so much that I thought he'd be one of those quirky kids who is the "weird" kid, but maybe just quiet and introverted and nerdy and very compliant about work, because he's so smart and so thirsty for knowledge. But I think school has been a huge disappointment for him, academically. He thought they were going to learn about really advanced and interesting stuff. He thought they'd be discussing things and exploring the world. He didn't know it would be "sit down and shut up and do this busy-work, and stop asking your pesky questions about chemistry."

For sure there is a problem with the motivational system. I donated that flaw to him. I don't know what the solution to that is. I struggle with the same issue, daily. I have all my own little tricks to be productive. They don't always work. I'm trying to teach him how to find his own ways to be productive and happy. He's not buying into it yet.

1. I would look very hard to see if there are any schools doing "project-based learning" in your area. Might be a public charter school, International Baccalaureate charter, or Montessori.

2. Watch the videos at http://www.livesinthebalance.org/walking-tour-parents to learn about the Collaborative Problem Solving method. It would really be worth trying this method with him regarding the worksheets.

"I've noticed you have difficulty finishing your reading comprehension worksheets. What's up?"
Get him talking and find out from his point of view IN DETAIL why they are hard or why he objects to doing them.
When you've exhaustively understood his point of view, explain the school's reasons for wanting written work from him. (Practice on concepts, proof that he's learned, etc.)
Get him to propose some solutions. You could try them out on homework before suggesting them to the school.

3. How much written work are they requiring? Could you make a deal with your son for him to write X amount, use a label maker to keyboard the next Y amount, and then scribe the remaining?

Thank you zette for the link... I will check that out. We have tried so hard to get his input on why he's so averse... he seems unable or unwilling to explain his point of view on it. I'm not sure he knows. Just this year he has gotten better at describing when his own brain is "getting in the way" (perfectionism) and that has been really useful because he's now able to separate that feeling from the other part of himself which would actually like to be compliant and move on and get to whatever reward is being offered. I'm teaching him to "talk back" to that inner voice that is getting in his way. But there are other things going on that he hasn't been able to explain. I don't know if it's just boredom or if there is some real confusion going on with the instructions or if all of it combined is just overwhelming on some level. I think if he's feeling overwhelmed that would be a hard thing to put into words. Maybe there are other subtle ways to discuss it with him that would have better luck at getting him to talk about it.

I do think that work needs to be meaningful to him in order for to him feel that it's worth putting in the effort and focus required. If he's working really hard to make a sign or something as part of a project he's doing at home with his brother, there isn't any writing difficulty. It's when he sees it as pointless busy-work that the difficulty occurs. I've also noticed that really minor things like letting him use a white-board or different tools that are novel or feel more "fun" can make a big difference. I have suggested they let him do his spelling tests on a white board and then have someone take a picture of it with their phone as "proof" before it gets erased. I think they did this one or two times but now they are back to just wanting him to do it the "normal" way (pencil & paper). I think they are just really invested in getting him to do it the same way everyone else is doing it ... and he CAN, on the rare day when all the planets are aligned. Maybe if they hadn't seen that (the capability) they'd be more willing to just allow an alternative without always pushing for the "normal" way first. See, that's where they screw up. They push for the "normal" way and then when he refuses, THEN they offer the alternative-- but by that time, they have already "contaminated" the assignment. It seems pretty obvious to me.

Carpenter Bee,

We have a lot of the same issues. I will be honest and say that the most advanced our son has ever been was when we did student-led learning at home during the pre-school years and the summers. The problem with that, of course, is that we only did things of interest.

We are also having issues covering less-desired subjects at home, and have similar type dysgraphia issues as you do. I agree with DW_a_Mom that dysgraphia can be non-apparent in many ways.

My son really does not understand why he can't just do what he likes. Talking about such a long-term time horizon as having to do all this boring stuff so you maybe can eventually specialize in what you want, is clearly not going to work/is not working.

We are also trying Collaborative Problem Solving, but compromise is not his thing, either. I know what you mean about it looking like laziness. It does, and some of it in our case, is. A lot of it is a function of maturity and a temperament that is just not suited to tedious work. It does not give his brain the stimulation it needs.

We plug along and some days work better than others. We get the most progress when we are flexible, which at your school they are clearly not.

If they try something like the white board, a few token times, and then stop and make him do it the "right way." He will have to eventually do work a standard way, but I would rather non-standard than nothing. So should they. Have you asked them to revisit the white board for spelling?

^^^^ This.

I just got another email from the RSP teacher, and their method has become a bit more clear-- this is what they do with him: they give him a worksheet. He either refuses to get started, or gets started but then quits after very little work completed. If he gets really upset he puts his head down on the desk. They continue to "prompt" him to continue every 5 minutes. After 20 minutes of this, they take the unfinished work away and put it into the "take home" folder. Then they introduce a new assignment. Rinse, repeat. Sounds fun, yeah?

What concerns me more is that in this latest email, she complains that they have tried offering all the alternate forms of demonstrating-- white board, iPad, computer, etc- but that none of those methods is working. Which just seems weird to me. If I offered to let him dictate all of his homework, he'd be overjoyed and would be very willing to complete his homework and get it done in a "normal" amount of time. (It's actually what I do now, and then try to get him to recopy as much as he can stand to before it's due at the end of the week.) So i don't know why he's not doing that at school, if they are truly offering him that method. Maybe he really does have a bigger problem with the environment than is apparent, or maybe he just doesn't like working with the people he's assigned to. Or maybe he doesn't like going to RSP to be accommodated. (I wonder if he's given the option to dictate his work with his aide, WITHOUT being kicked out of the gen ed room?)

What REALLY bothers me is how all of these types of emails that I get wind up sounding like ultimatums. Like, he'd better shape up, or else. Or else what? They keep warning that "the work is going to get harder," as though they are going to frighten me into giving up on him. I'm not, and have never been, afraid of the academic demands or complexity of the work. It's like by their comments and concerns, they reveal their true underestimation of his academic capability and potential. Like they know he's going to "hit the wall" at some point and not be able to learn more difficult material, so we may as well admit defeat and just give up now before it gets harder.

The road blocks and excuses our kids can create in their own minds are amazing, aren't they? And capable of driving us into near insanity.

Rephrase, try another approach. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Someday they get it (hopefully).

I want to give you a little hope. Your son sounds bright, so that is good. The problem is the process of school. Well, my son has never and never will care for the process of school. He can rant and rant. BUT, somewhere along the way, he decided to just do what he knew needed to be done. I wonder if part of it was pride; he resented seeing kids he can dance rings around knowledge wise score high grades and praise. Whatever it was, it may not have been enough to get him to play the game perfectly, but it got him into the game. He also saw me get angry at teachers (not to their faces) and rubrics and knew I was on his side, which I think he just needed to know.

We do, by the way, talk about it as "the game." The game that is the formal system of school. As much as my son hates it, he also does NOT want to home school (he figures I'm too much of a pushover and he'd never learn a thing). He made a choice. BUT, that turning point was not until middle school; before that it was basically a system of brides, rewards, and accommodations; whatever it took to get through. I do not miss those years. He could be so amazing and cute and engaging but getting him through school work? That was the worst.

YES.

I have sort of accepted that this will just be our life for a while (fighting about schoolwork), and just needing to GET THROUGH until he can focus on the stuff he's really interested in... and I would be actually be okay with it (because he's brilliant, he's learning, and he has a friend)... if only the SCHOOL would accept it, and stop bothering me and pretending like there's no educational benefit going on (because there so totally IS, dammit.)

I have come to the conclusion that many of our kids simply HAVE to do things differently. It just HAS to be out of the box. They also have a low capacity for doing work they consider senseless. To me, that's all part of ASD. I don't think your son is going to budge on this until he matures (maybe in a few years). In order for him to move forward, someone is going to have to accommodate him at the school or at homeschool.

A simple thing to try is to allow a lot of self expression on those worksheets. In the margins, allow him to express that he already knows this material, and so it's a wasteful exercise etc. as long as he fulfills the objectives of the worksheets. He'll have to draw the line at disrespect, but he needs an outlet for his pain (IMHO). Allow him to draw a frowning jack-o-lantern next to each item he already knew, for example. My son is much older, but once his teacher and I allowed him to write creative little comments and sketches in casual graphical style around his work, he got done in a fraction of the time on his compositions. I only require that he respect our editing suggestions. He always fulfills or exceeds the requirements, but his papers were much more creative than everyone else's.

I suggest homeschooling for a while. He is so young. I say let him learn what he wants now, and you'll have plenty of years to decide when to put him back in school. He is so bright, nothing you will do or neglect to do will hold him back. And you'll have the benefit of learning so much more about how he thinks. My son fights me hard any time he does not understand the benefit of the exercise. I hate it, but I feel only I have the patience to get him through it without the consequences that you are mentioning.

My son is much better this year. Years ago, he became much better when we changed his diet. Now I think his improvement is due to maturity. Your mileage will vary, I'm sure.

I still think that you need to find some ways to get your son to do something that he doesn't like to do on demand.
The school is not entirely wrong in what they say.

Well, this is, I think, exactly what everyone has been trying to do... at school, at home, and with extra outside help (like O.T.)... it's just a lot easier-said-than-done. I think he is making progress forward in this area, but the speed is glacial, especially compared with the very aggressive ramping-up of expectations for students at his age (from Kindergarten to 2nd grade)... the stuff they are really upping-the-ante-on just happens to also be the stuff that he struggles with (like much more independence in time-management and self-regulation, and the ability to sit and focus for extended times on one thing-- like to sit and work on a writing task for an hour without a break.)

I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is whether I'm actually harming him by keeping him in school, while in the meantime we all try to help him learn some discipline... or to at least agree to "play the game" in order to get the things that he wants. I do think he will develop his own methods for self-discipline eventually. In a way maybe it'd be easier (for me to decide) if he seemed more miserable. But he's not the one who's miserable--it's all the adults at school, who are tasked with trying to get results from him, who are miserable... who then in turn make ME miserable because they have to communicate that frustration.

There is such a chasm right now, between his emotional/behavioral capabilities, and his intellectual capabilities/needs, that he's just a very difficult candidate for organized group instruction, I think. But elementary school is about so much more than "instruction"... and that's why I want to keep him there if I can... if he wants to.

But in the meantime I'm starting to research homeschooling in California... I want to be ready if things get uglier... has anyone tried doing Independent Study at home without actually withdrawing from the school? I've heard that this is a bad way to go, but I'm wondering why...