Lying and aggression from 15 yr old - is this the Aspergers?

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I just love how the OP calls it "the Aspergers" like it's a disease, and that anything negative must be because of it. Many NT people are addicted to substances.

From my perspective, which is lacking because I do not even know what experiences your 15 year old son has encountered over the years, the problem is related to stress rather than behavior. If you can help reduce his stress load (primarily the stress energy stored in his muscles and nervous system), his behavior will fall back into line.

If he is having a panic attack (a serious meltdown), he may not even remember that he threw the coke can against the wall. His body is reacting on autopilot. So how can he admit to lying if he doesn't remember or even having control of his actions. [So I would not ask him why he threw the coke against the wall. I would just ask him to clean up the mess.]

The human brain is composed of many components. The polyvagal theory developed by Stephen Porges describes how animals respond to threats. These systems are orchestrated by the primitive structures in our brain stem—the upper part of the brain stem. They're instinctive and they're almost reflexive. The tonic immobility is the most primitive system, and it spans probably over 500 million years. It is a combination of freezing and collapsing—the muscles go limp, the person is left without any energy. The next in evolutionary development is the sympathetic nervous system, the fight-or-flight response. And this system evolved from the reptilian period, which was about 300 million years ago. Its function is enhanced action (fight-or-flight). Finally the third and most recent system is the social engagement system, and this occurs only in mammals. Its purpose is to drive social engagement—making friends—in order to defuse the aggression or tension.

Stress is cumulative across these three brain elements. If there is a lot of stress stored in the body, it takes only a little more stress in another element to set of distress. So it is a little like setting off a chain reaction. The brain elements will collapse inward under severe stress. Tonic immobility (a major panic attack) is the most primitive system. It is a function of the core brain. If we feel that we can't escape and are cornered by a predator—in other words, if there's no way to escape—then we'll fight back. Now, if none of those procedures are effective, and it looks like we're going to be killed and our bodies will be torn to pieces, we go into the shock state, the tonic immobility. One of the things that Bessel van der Kolk showed when he first started to do trauma research with functional MRIs is that when people are in the trauma state, they actually shut down the frontal parts of their brain and particularly the area on the left cortex called Broca's area, which is responsible for speech. When the person is in the traumatic state, those brain regions are literally shut down; they're taken offline.

Highly traumatized and chronically neglected or abused individuals are dominated by the immobilization/shutdown system. Chronically traumatized individuals tend to be plagued with dissociative symptoms, including frequent spaciness, unreality, depersonalization, and various somatic and health complaints. Somatic symptoms include gastrointestinal problems, migraines, some forms of asthma, persistent pain, chronic fatigue and general disengagement from life.

Richard Maguire described his meltdowns in the following way:

As a child and teenager, I felt helpless against meltdowns; they had me in a destructive cycle. I hurt people, lost friends and got into all sorts of trouble. My meltdowns were either the explosive sort, or I would run for miles. A meltdown is the result of anxiety and the resulting excess of adrenaline. There are three ways a meltdown can manifest: as an explosion of violence (the fight response), running away (the flight response), or becoming totally passive and playing dead (the play dead response). I think all three responses are equally serious and indicate that someone is terrified beyond coping, even if only the fight or flight responses seem serious to onlookers.

I developed play dead meltdowns in later teens as they attracted kinder responses. I have hit out at people, trashed my room, self-harmed and lots of other things in meltdown. These all scared me, as did the inevitability of the next meltdown, which then made a meltdown come sooner. I had play dead meltdowns several times daily, and explosive meltdowns at about 18-month intervals in early adulthood.

Tonic immobility (sensory overload and shutdown in Aspies) is driven by a state of primal fear. This is driven by the sensing of danger and the inability to avoid, escape and defend. It is a state of utter hopelessness.

In the fight-or-flight response, the objective is to get away from the source of threat. All of our muscles prepare for this escape by increasing their tension level, our heart rate and respiration increase, and our whole basic metabolic system is flooded with adrenaline. Blood is diverted to the muscles, away from the viscera. The goal is to run away, or if we feel that we can't escape or if we perceive that the individual that's trying to attack us is less strong than we are, to attack them. Or if we're cornered by a predator—in other words, if there's no way to escape—then we'll fight back. Now, if none of those procedures are effective, and it looks like we're going to be killed, we go into the shock state, the tonic immobility. Now the key is that when people get into this immobility state, they do it in a state of fear. And as they come out of the immobility state, they also enter a state of fear, and actually a state in which they are prepared for what sometimes is called rage counterattack. For example, you see a cat chasing a mouse. The cat catches the mouse and has it in its paws, and the mouse goes into this immobility response. And sometimes you'll actually see the cat bat the mouse around a little bit until it comes out of the immobility, because it wants the chase to go on. Now, what can happen is that the mouse, when it comes out of the immobility state, goes into what is called nondirective flight. It doesn't even look for where it can run. It just runs as fast as it can in any direction. Sometimes that's right into the cat. Other times, it will actually attack, in a counterattack of rage. I've actually seen a mouse who was captured by a cat come out of the immobility and attack the cat's nose. The cat was so startled it remained there in that state while the mouse scurried away. When people come out of this immobility response, their potential for rage is so strong and the associated sensations are so intense that they are afraid of their own impulse to strike out and to defend themselves by killing the predator. Again, this all goes back to our animal heritage.

The stress your son might be feeling may be a product of bullying at school. So you might want to understand the source of his stress. Probably the most effective treatment is to teach you son how to vent his stored stress in a socially acceptable manner.


Also welcome to Wrong Planet.

I can only add that I agree whole-heartedly with Jimmy M. He said it better than I did!

As I mentioned earlier, escalated a bit again earlier. Son got home and wife told he was still banned. One thing led to another and he shoved her flying over a chair. Shes got bruises on her back, banged her head, suspected broken wrist. I'm picking her up from hospital later (had to bring 5 year old home).

I wasn't there which was probably lucky because I'd have intervened.

Of course, hes sorry now. Wife is upset but wants to get something sorted for him.In a way, I hope this gives him a bit of a shock and it hits home to him how bad things are.

If he's only reacting in this aggressive violent way when he's done something that he knows is wrong and he's lying about it, I really don't think it's a meltdown you're dealing with. It sounds more like a tantrum. Unless your son is cognitively challenged he knows when he's done something he's not supposed to, that you've specifically asked him not to do, and he knows there will be consequences for it (hence the lying). I really don't think this is an autism issue but a conduct/behaviour issue. He needs to be talking to a therapist about why he thinks it's OK to act out aggressively when he's done something he knows he's not supposed to do, getting to the root of that and learning how to deal with his emotions without abusing other people.

You know, I don't think he cognitively does not know what he does. But I suspect he emotionally can't get with it.

I used to be a lying child. I have a lying 6yo myself. It's tricky but manageable - because I remember being on her place.
So, cognitively, you know what is true. But emotions are powerful, they can make your mind bend the reality with an arsenal of defense mechanisms - you can look psychological defense mechanisms up, interesting topic, not ASD related, everyone has them.

So, he did something wrong, likely because of some strong emotions. Then, there is guilt. Then, you come, and there is shame. And then, he knows his PC time, probably the only area that he finds his own and safe, is threatened - there is fear. An explosive cocktail of powerful emotions. Too powerful to act reasonable under their influence.