Discipline: What is acceptable?

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DW_a_mom
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03 Apr 2008, 12:12 pm

I think most As children respond well to clear boundaries and well spelled out consequences. However, my observation is that "strict" parenting is not always consistent with "clear boundaries" and "well spelled out consequences." And therein lies the problem. A parent may be "harsh" in the effort to provide structure, and in the process (a) try to suppress all natural behavior or (b) not make the rules clear. If a child is developing fear from the strict environment, it is not strict, but harsh.

We have friends who are much like the OP's parents. I adore their kids. But I've also observed something: the parents pick their battles. When we spent a day with them, years ago when their children were young (before ours were born), and were outside watching a play in the heat, they allowed the little ones to play with water and a plastic fork in daddy's hair. When we wanted to chat in the parking lot, they allowed the children to run circles around us, as long as they kept their voices down. So, while the parents have rules that I would not have picked, and issue consequences different than I would choose, they also are smart enough to recognize that their children will, at times, need to be children.

My son thrived when he had a very strict, conservative Christian nanny. She was very clear on her rules, she was consistent in their application, and she had time scheduled every day where they would get to do favorite things together, be silly, and what not.

Structure is good. But too many people who advocate it don't seem to really understand what it means. For those who do, I have nothing but praise. I've seen it in action. It can be beautiful.

Balance.

Tuning into the unique needs of each child.

These remain part and parcel of raising children, regardless of everything else you choose to layer.


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DW_a_mom
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03 Apr 2008, 12:18 pm

sinagua wrote:

I agree that strict disciplinarianism is not the way to go. I was raised to behave well, but I always had a knot in my stomach and was a very nervous kid. I heard "do as I say, not as I do" SO many times - I can't believe any parent thinks that one actually works. I was screamed at, "spanked" with a belt/paddle/whatever was handy, called vile names, told I was "nothing special," and told that my feelings were not "real."


What you are describing is not strict discipline, but abuse administered in the disguise of strict discipline. And I see from reading on that you do know that.

Abuse is a horrible way to grow up. It can happen in a loose environment as well as in a strict one; it is actually an entirely separate issue.

And I am very, very sorry to hear that you experienced it.


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sinagua
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03 Apr 2008, 1:35 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
sinagua wrote:

I agree that strict disciplinarianism is not the way to go. I was raised to behave well, but I always had a knot in my stomach and was a very nervous kid. I heard "do as I say, not as I do" SO many times - I can't believe any parent thinks that one actually works. I was screamed at, "spanked" with a belt/paddle/whatever was handy, called vile names, told I was "nothing special," and told that my feelings were not "real."


What you are describing is not strict discipline, but abuse administered in the disguise of strict discipline. And I see from reading on that you do know that.

Abuse is a horrible way to grow up. It can happen in a loose environment as well as in a strict one; it is actually an entirely separate issue.

And I am very, very sorry to hear that you experienced it.


I didn't mean to go off topic. Maybe I have a poor idea of what people mean when they say "discipline".

Yes, abuse is a separate issue. I just think many people don't realize how fine a line there exists between abusive and "tough love" or "very strict."



katrine
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03 Apr 2008, 1:43 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I think most As children respond well to clear boundaries and well spelled out consequences. However, my observation is that "strict" parenting is not always consistent with "clear boundaries" and "well spelled out consequences." And therein lies the problem. A parent may be "harsh" in the effort to provide structure, and in the process (a) try to suppress all natural behavior or (b) not make the rules clear. If a child is developing fear from the strict environment, it is not strict, but harsh.

We have friends who are much like the OP's parents. I adore their kids. But I've also observed something: the parents pick their battles. When we spent a day with them, years ago when their children were young (before ours were born), and were outside watching a play in the heat, they allowed the little ones to play with water and a plastic fork in daddy's hair. When we wanted to chat in the parking lot, they allowed the children to run circles around us, as long as they kept their voices down. So, while the parents have rules that I would not have picked, and issue consequences different than I would choose, they also are smart enough to recognize that their children will, at times, need to be children.

My son thrived when he had a very strict, conservative Christian nanny. She was very clear on her rules, she was consistent in their application, and she had time scheduled every day where they would get to do favorite things together, be silly, and what not.

Structure is good. But too many people who advocate it don't seem to really understand what it means. For those who do, I have nothing but praise. I've seen it in action. It can be beautiful.

Balance.

Tuning into the unique needs of each child.

These remain part and parcel of raising children, regardless of everything else you choose to layer.


So nicely said.
I agree so much, and hope to be a parent who picks the right battles...



DW_a_mom
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03 Apr 2008, 2:44 pm

sinagua wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
sinagua wrote:

I agree that strict disciplinarianism is not the way to go. I was raised to behave well, but I always had a knot in my stomach and was a very nervous kid. I heard "do as I say, not as I do" SO many times - I can't believe any parent thinks that one actually works. I was screamed at, "spanked" with a belt/paddle/whatever was handy, called vile names, told I was "nothing special," and told that my feelings were not "real."


What you are describing is not strict discipline, but abuse administered in the disguise of strict discipline. And I see from reading on that you do know that.

Abuse is a horrible way to grow up. It can happen in a loose environment as well as in a strict one; it is actually an entirely separate issue.

And I am very, very sorry to hear that you experienced it.


I didn't mean to go off topic. Maybe I have a poor idea of what people mean when they say "discipline".

Yes, abuse is a separate issue. I just think many people don't realize how fine a line there exists between abusive and "tough love" or "very strict."


Not off topic at all. I think many parents fail to understand the differences. And they are extremely important. As a result, I think it is very much a part of this topic to delve into that.


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03 Apr 2008, 8:09 pm

Jennyfoo wrote:
Most people would think we're too strict or too hard on the kids, especially our oldest. My sister thinks we're too hard on them. I think we're teaching them to be responsible. That's our job, to raise them to be responsible adults some day.

Consistent, clear rules and expectations make children feel more secure in their environment. Children who feel secure will not have as many behavioral problems. This is especially true for kids on the spectrum who seem to thrive best with order and routine.


I appreciate what you say. I know that discipline is often frowned upon or misunderstood, but I can't help wonder if that is why I didn't have behavioral problems other than typical AS anxiety and depression.

Z



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03 Apr 2008, 8:13 pm

ster wrote:
for those of us who struggle with kids who have discipline/behavior issues, i just want to remind us that their behavior is not our fault. Sometimes we can help them to become better behaved, but sometimes we cannot. i do not find authoritarian households to be an effective, nurturing environment for anyone ( ie; you do what i say because i'm the parent).........i think there needs to be a balance . kids need to feel safe & loved. it's our job to help them feel that way.


I knew my parents loved me, they gave me the space to be a goofy kid, and they didn't expect that I would think the way they did. They just didn't allow any inappropriate behavior. I guess that is balanced.

Z

Edit: typo



Last edited by Zonder on 04 Apr 2008, 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zonder
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03 Apr 2008, 8:16 pm

sinagua wrote:
I agree that strict disciplinarianism is not the way to go. I was raised to behave well, but I always had a knot in my stomach and was a very nervous kid. I heard "do as I say, not as I do" SO many times - I can't believe any parent thinks that one actually works. I was screamed at, "spanked" with a belt/paddle/whatever was handy, called vile names, told I was "nothing special," and told that my feelings were not "real."


What you experienced is difficult to read - I empathize with what you write. A few times my parents did go too far with discipline, however, they never said "Do as I say, not as I do." They tried to live the life they expected of my sister and me.

Z



Zonder
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03 Apr 2008, 8:27 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I think most As children respond well to clear boundaries and well spelled out consequences. However, my observation is that "strict" parenting is not always consistent with "clear boundaries" and "well spelled out consequences." And therein lies the problem. A parent may be "harsh" in the effort to provide structure, and in the process (a) try to suppress all natural behavior or (b) not make the rules clear. If a child is developing fear from the strict environment, it is not strict, but harsh.

We have friends who are much like the OP's parents. I adore their kids. But I've also observed something: the parents pick their battles. When we spent a day with them, years ago when their children were young (before ours were born), and were outside watching a play in the heat, they allowed the little ones to play with water and a plastic fork in daddy's hair. When we wanted to chat in the parking lot, they allowed the children to run circles around us, as long as they kept their voices down. So, while the parents have rules that I would not have picked, and issue consequences different than I would choose, they also are smart enough to recognize that their children will, at times, need to be children.

My son thrived when he had a very strict, conservative Christian nanny. She was very clear on her rules, she was consistent in their application, and she had time scheduled every day where they would get to do favorite things together, be silly, and what not.

Structure is good. But too many people who advocate it don't seem to really understand what it means. For those who do, I have nothing but praise. I've seen it in action. It can be beautiful.

Balance.

Tuning into the unique needs of each child.

These remain part and parcel of raising children, regardless of everything else you choose to layer.


Thank you for writing this, DW_a_mom. You eloquently explain what I couldn't express. I do feel that my parents had a good grasp on boundaries and consequences in an environment of love and even indulgence at times.

I've had three different acquaintances who gave their children little to no disciplinary framework because they felt it would stifle their children. Their children have MAJOR behavioral difficulties (defiance, willfulness, anger) and I've often wondered if it was because they had few boundaries.

My parents understood that we were individuals and that they couldn't control us forever. About the time we entered high school, they sat my sister and me down and said, "We've raised you the way we thought we should, but now it's time for you to make your own decisions. We aren't giving you any curfew, just let us know if you're going to be out late." You'd have thought that I'd have gone crazy whoopin' it up, but I didn't. I realized my personal integrity was important and that ultimately there are non-parental consequences for bad behavior.

Z



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04 Apr 2008, 12:06 pm

Zonder wrote:

I knew my parents loved me, they gave me the space to be a goofy kid, and they didn't expect that I would think the way they did. They just didn't allow any inappropriate behavior. I guess that is balanced.

Z



I think there are some important points in this very brief paragraph. You KNEW your parents loved you; they didn't just say it, they successfully conveyed it, and that allowed you to have trust that there would be good reasons for the rules. And they did allow you to be you. VERY important.

I think the main difference between "strict" and "abusive" is intent: a strict parents creates rules, guidelines, and structure that are intended to allow the child to SUCCEED in following them, and develop a sense of security and confidence from it all. An abusive parent keeps things vague and out of reach, undermines the child's self-confidence, and essentially makes it so that the child is destined to FAIL, so that the abusive parent can blame all his or her own failings on the child. They may not always be aware of that, it could be subconscious, but it is there.

I really wanted to make that clear in this discussion, that no one is advocating here that children will do better in a home with more severe and adverse consquences. That is NOT what "strict" parenting means, even if many bad or ignorant parents use the concept as a cover.

I am, actually, a rather lax parent, who struggles with consistency. But I understand consistency and clarity is very important, and I do have respect for parents who can do "strict" in the right way, as I've expressed above. I just know I'm not one of them, lol! So, I've had to find my own style, my own path. And I THINK it's working, thank goodness. Still, it has been really useful for me to see how much my children can benefit from loving structure, and I continually work to improve on providing it.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 04 Apr 2008, 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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04 Apr 2008, 12:11 pm

Zonder wrote:

My parents understood that we were individuals and that they couldn't control us forever. About the time we entered high school, they sat my sister and me down and said, "We've raised you the way we thought we should, but now it's time for you to make your own decisions. We aren't giving you any curfew, just let us know if you're going to be out late." You'd have thought that I'd have gone crazy whoopin' it up, but I didn't. I realized my personal integrity was important and that ultimately there are non-parental consequences for bad behavior.

Z


My parents handled the teen years very similarly to yours. I do believe it is the best way. My sister stretched it all to the limits, however - I think what really shocked us as adults was finding out that my mom actually KNEW all the stuff my sister was doing, but kept her mouth shut! She's told us that she felt it was important for my sister to figure things out for herself, that it was the only way for my sister, and that while she was really worried and came close to spilling the beans and stepping in a few times, she found that my sister always pulled back just in time. I've always felt to KNOW but sit back - that it really showed a lot of strength on my mom's part.


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06 Apr 2008, 9:11 am

Zonder wrote:
IMy questions are:

Can strict, vigilant, consistent discipline, from infancy, decrease behavioral problems in ASD children?

Does discipline or innate temperament have more influence on how children behave?

What do you feel is an acceptable level of discipline?

Z


I believe that boundaries, consistent discipline, staying firm and doing this from the beginning CAN decrease behavioral problems in ASD children. My daughter has AS and my son has PDD-NOS. They're both better behaved than most NT children, and people are always telling me this. My husband and I are just very consistent. With consistency and firmness, there is no need to be overly harsh on them.

As a child, I was MUCH like my daughter (I also have AS). Our temperaments are almost identical. She is SO much better behaviorally than I was. I often had meltdowns, but my environment and rules were always subject to change. I craved routine so badly that I begged for chores just so I would have something consistent in my life which I could control. I even made detailed charts of chores I would do and assigned myself days to do them. However, mother often refused to let me do them because she has severe OCD and needed to do everything herself.

Temperament does play a role, and it works both ways. A difficult child can wear parents nerves down a bit and make them more likely to give in instead of sticking to their rules - but this child needs routine just as much as another, and lack of it can bring about consequences just as dire.

As far as acceptable level of discipline, that's a really broad question which is difficult to answer. We use time-out. They HATE it. It works. However, some people think it doesn't work at all for their children. Again, consistency. Starting young is pretty important with that too.


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06 Apr 2008, 11:00 am

I certainly agree with consistency, having clear expectations and predictable consequences, but I too, recoil from the word "discipline" because of my own punishment-heavy, stressed out childhood. My parents made it clear that they loved me and were not abusive, but the standards that they were trying to hold me to were way too high. This created constant frustration, guilt and a deep sense of failure and shame. It also created anger, and I acted out big time in my adolescent/teen years.

So while I agree that kids benefit from structure and consistency, I also think that we have to be sensitive to the individual needs and abilities of our children. I think it's also important to be flexible, responsive and realistic.

There are many factors that contribute to whether or not a child will "behave" in addition to parenting style and parental expectations. My sons can be absolutely delightful when they are engaged in the activity at hand, well rested, well fed and in good health. They can rise to the occasion most of the time even when they are bored, tired, nervous etc. But if they are overwhelmed by noises, textures, lights, too many people etc. they will behave very poorly. There are times when I can see them struggling to meet the social expectations in a certain setting, but simply cannot...other people may perceive this as them being "bratty" and our parenting skills being lax, but we know that they have simply reached their limits.

I also agree that temperament plays a role too. One of my sons really needs firm boundaries or he quickly spirals out of control, the other really struggles with anxiety and feelings of guilt and sadness and he does his best when he has room to make mistakes without censure and receives lots and lots of encouragement.

It sounds like the OP's parents really got it right and provided them with a style of parenting that really worked well for them, but I guess my point is that the same style wouldn't necessarily be best for every other child, AS or NT.