Sometimes I just would love my mom to fark off.

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This is a common tactic of emotional abusers, did you know that?

That's not quite true.

Aspie1968 expressed surprise that people would recommend food service for aspies, and explained why he was surprised. Both Ominous and I took this as an opportunity to explain why and under what circumstances an aspie's taking such a job could be a good idea. This kind of give and take is the essence of productive discussion - sharing different opinions, as you say, and also surfacing more information which might be useful to the original poster.

However, it appears to me that Ominous also took it as an attack on aspies working in food service, which she took personally because she had personally done such work. I don't think the comment was intended as an attack - in fact, I don't see how the discussion could have surfaced the additional information I mentioned without the comment - but I do see how Ominous could take it that way.

That led to the following comment, which went beyond a simple sharing of opinion and actually was a personal attack, albeit mild:


After all, we don't actually know what options aspie 1968 did or did not have. Things went downhill from there, of course.

Now, some people might be more inclined to forgive Ominous because Ominous is clearly under stress based on the emotional content of her posts. But remember, we're talking about aspies here. Aspies don't always display emotion in obvious ways. I think it's quite possible that aspie1968 is under similar stress - possibly just from living on the wrong planet - but displays it in a different way, specifically by writing more prolonged posts that dig into what some might see as excessively detailed analysis. From an aspie "fair rules" perspective, I don't think either person is more in the right or more in the wrong here. Personally, I'm inclined to forgive both of them, if any forgiveness is needed.

I do give Ominous credit for letting it drop. The nice thing about internet arguments is that it only takes one side dropping the argument for it to end.

My opinion is this. I think love is the answer. I believe we need to start showing love towards each other. Aspie1968, I do not think any kind of socialism or government will change anything. I do noe believe any of us can force anyone to do what they don't want to do. I believe that is what you're doing my friend. I'm sorry but I believe it is wrong. I am guilty 100% with this especially with my SO in my life. Aspie1968, I believe you're making the same mistakes I made.

Honestly my friend I believe you have a lot of hatred and anger inside of you. I do as well. If we are to be cured of anything it is our hatred and anger. I believe we need to start forgiving those who have transgressed us. I believe we need to love our enemies and if we can do this I believe we will be alright. I believe that one of the things we need to do is to do for others without expectation of any return or any strings attached.

I believe we need to get rid of our "demanding" voice and change it to an asking voice. This means means we can say to another person "Will you please help me with x?" Keep in mind they may say no. If they do I say move on. Don't debate them or challenge them.

Personally, I believe what ails our country is our lack of love for each other. This is what I envision. I believe we're all aspies including NTs. We're all NTs as well. The whole world is aspergia. We're all aspergia. We're all brothers and sisters on this planet my friend. Love is the key, the answer, and the solution.

Extremely practical life advice.

Enjoyed the rest of the post, too, but thought that line could use a whole lot of emphasis.

Ok guys guess what? aspie1968 for the win. I'm done with WP yet again. Sorry. It is no longer a place where I can get support in fact whenever a notification appears in my inbox I silently dread it will be for me to come and read something else this one has to say to me. See you on the flip side.

aspie1968, dw_a_mom s correct and this is from one aspie to another. You will not change anyone's mind by your tactics. I've used the same tactics myself. They failed miserably. Sometimes you may have to use grace my brother which means even if you're correct on something and have the evidence to back it up you may still have to forego your point and just drop it. aspie1968, I know you have alot of anger and hatred inside of you. I can tell how it manifests by the way you write. I do as well. I am asking Jesus to help me deal with it. This anger will destroy you.

You can't win by might and power my brother. You can only win by spirit and love alone. In my opinion let's forget Autism rights and all of these civil rights movements and instead let's create a better world for all of humanity by loving each other. Love is the answer my brother. Pure selfless love.

The thing is what DW_a_Mom is telling you is you're talking to her and others like they're are a piece of garbage and a piece of dog doodoo. You're talking to them like they're inferior and she is nothing to you. Honestly, I can't stand your arrogant and snotty behavior. I do have love for you as a fellow human being. There are certain people in my life who do this today and I hate it with a passion. I can totally empathize and sympathize with DW_a Mom on this one. When someone talks down to me like that it riles up my anger immensely. From one aspie to another, I am asking you and imploring you Aspie1968 to please stop. DW_a_Mom is our equal my brother. She is our sister. None of us are perfect. We have all done wrong in one way or another and we all have our flaws. C'mon my brother, let's cut the nonsense.

This will be my last post on this thread, or on this site. I have decided that I'm suffering too much abuse for it to be worth continuing posting here.

If the moderators act to silence dissent and enable abuse, and if intolerant neoliberal denkverbots are so fixed-in-place that questioning them is deemed to be against the rules, then there is no place for dissidents like me to articulate an alternative. There seems to be a near-consensus here that real debate is not possible and that neoliberals are permitted to respond with abuse to anything which questions their underlying assumptions. This closure around a dominant perspective makes it impossible for me to contribute meaningfully. The objection here is being misconstrued in defensive terms, when really it consists of a demand for deference to neoliberalism as the hegemonic position, and acceptance and absorption of the abuse it entails.

DS – instead of learning the lesson you want me to learn, to shut up and conform, I'm instead learning a different lesson: it is a waste of time arguing with people who hold a dominant viewpoint, or trusting them to play fair in a discussion. That the preconditions for the conversation that needs to be had do not yet exist, as the forces of monologue are too strong. I don't trust you that following your advice would be a better way to do things, because I can see that you want conformity with your own positions. Anything you advise will militate against me ever adopting it, or arriving at it myself, simply because I will associate it with a stance of conformity and deference to power.

But I will give off a parting note before I go.

I cannot “leave alone” an experience of being abused, because I have a little thing called honour. I cannot learn the things neoliberals tell me to, and if I could, I'd refuse to anyway – I don't want to be like them. I do not accept any imputed right of neoliberals to decide what I should do. I have never asked DS or anyone else here for advice on how to communicate. This 'advice' is unwanted and constitutes an attack – it is patronising. None of you have any right to tell me what I must or must not do – especially those who repeatedly abuse me on the slightest pretext, in violation of their own rules. You have succeeded in creating an unsafe space here for me, and quite possibly for others with similar dispositions. Since I cannot speak truth to power here, it follows that I cannot speak at all. Hence why this will be my last post.

“this is one thing you keep missing in this thread: the clue that says, "leave it be."”... DS, you haven't got the foggiest idea how much we disagree... I don't accept that, when Ominous expresses a position which is abusive towards me, she has any right to tell me to 'leave it be'... I don't accept that YOU have any right to tell me to 'leave it be'... I believe in a right to voice... I don't believe in being a good little conformist who never upsets NT people or conformist aspies. Sometimes I miss cues, but this was not one of those times. Ominous had very effectively signalled “don't you dare disagree with me” - just like all the others who insist that incapacity is “just an excuse” signal this (usually backed by “or else”). I see no good reason to submit to her command.

“Your posting style pushes people into that corner” - why do you never stop and think how YOUR posting style affects ME? Why is it always me who is meant to be careful not to upset you, rather than the other way around? (Answer: NT/conformist privilege). Let's throw this back at you. Your constant 'advice' to people who haven't asked for it is patronising. It patently expresses pro-NT bias, since you assume NT norms should predominate in all discussions. Your references to 'the real world' belittle in advance any alternative perspective, and hence talk down to people. Your aggressive and persistent use of imperatives comes across as authoritarian and commandist. The tropes you deploy regarding 'real' adulthood are belittling to people with other ways of life. Did it occur to you that, if I misread what you said earlier, it was because YOU were being unclear? Of course not. For the record: Ominous also DOES NOT seem stressed, she seems aggressive and intolerant. She seems certain she's right and certain that everyone else should live like her. She seems contemptuous towards beliefs she disagrees with, and those who hold them. She hears someone else's suffering and calls it 'whinging'. Someone who is stressed does not go around being intolerant of people who are stressed.

Oh, and an insistent style which bears a truth does change minds once enough people are refusing the dominant view often enough – it forces a conversation where previously there was a monologue. On this site today, there is simply a monologue, which I interrupted, and now you're active in 'crisis-management' trying to contain the event which broke through. You've got away with it, because there's only one of me, and my capacity to bear the abuse you throw my way is finite. When others who are now silenced gain the courage to speak, the monologue will become unsustainable and, at the very least, concessions will be made. Look at history and you will see that this is how every transformation happened. What was gained by years of asking Mubarak or Gadaffi nicely? There's no dialogue without two partners, and there isn't two partners when there's a dominant monologue.

I will not allow myself to be silenced by agents of the dominant system. To conform to the rules set by agents of power is to betray one's basic humanity. I will not obey the diktats of conformists who demand an asymmetrical right to attack, without a corresponding right of their victims to defend. I would sooner have no conversation than a conversation in which I tiptoe around oppressors' repressed Real, while simultaneously coming under assault from all sides.

DS, you are biased towards people who share your own point of view. You think I should take endless abuse and denial of my own needs by authoritarians. This is never going to happen. You think people like Ominous should be able to engage in endless abuse because the abusive nature of what they say is concealed to you.

What I said was neither personally abusive nor belittling. The motives you're imputing are a classic case of NT prejudice, misreading based on why an NT would act this way. We've already established that you don't accept recognised critical-theoretical techniques of discourse analysis and believe that all positions should be treated as self-present. To me, this stance is the theoretical equivalent of flat-earth, and it makes it impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you.

Ominous made demeaning and personal comments about me. She intimated that I was overly sensitive because of being coddled, which is both inaccurate and personally insulting. She accused me of 'whinging'. She accused me of being privileged, which was clearly intended to silence what I was saying, when she knows next to nothing about my life conditions. She claimed that, if I think something is not an option for me or for another aspie, this is just 'whinging'. She claimed she had come out 'better' than she would have done if she'd had an upbringing like she assumes I had. This implies that she is better than me, better than the people I know, and better than anyone else who doesn't follow her 'advice'. She also gave commands to me in an aggressive, authoritarian tone. She will realise very well from how I've posted before that I sometimes demand allowances for things which I can't do, or reasonably believe I can't do. She effectively told me I'm making excuses. She argues exactly the same way as any abuser who wants to deny the reality of disability (think of that Savage character's 'autism is just a bad excuse for children misbehaving') – and of course, this predictably triggers traumas in people who have been treated in this way by others (all of us have surely been told such things as that avoiding overstimulation is 'just a bad habit', that a perfectly valid misunderstanding is 'just an excuse' for rulebreaking and so on – and these experiences leave real scars). In two short paragraphs, that's three belittling claims, three claims with belittling implications and an abusive tone.

Now DS verbally attacks me for responding to this kind of abuse – apparently I was meant to submit to this outright assault and not live intensely the experience of oppression.

“the moderation team will not allow posters to knowingly go after each other's sensitive spots” - yet you allow them to post things including claims which anyone with a brain can figure out will be offensive to many aspies, such as that being unable to do things is 'just an excuse', or that being abused 'makes you better'. Ominous did not adopt the tone of someone who was vulnerable and had sensitive spots, she adopted the tone of someone who does not accept that others are sensitive and who wants to dominate them. She also CLEARLY KNEW from what went before that claiming autistic people are capable of everything, or that incapacity is just an excuse, would touch on MY sensitive spots. She did it anyway, in direct response to my post. If you can't see how offensive and personal this is then you are too blinded by your own bias to understand what these terms mean. The problem is that verbally abusing people for being different from the norm is so widespread and 'commonsensical' that it doesn't seem offensive to most people. Speaking truth to power, on the other hand, is deemed offensive. As always, it's one rule for the in-group, another for the oppressed.

A posting situation where viewpoints are juxtaposed without engagement is neither dialogue nor respectful. It places a true position on an equal level with a false one. It places excuses for abuse on a par with testimonies of survivors. It places defence-mechanisms on the same level as awareness. This is not my style and never will be. In relation to how rational argument is conducted, it is downright cheating.

Cubedemon: this is not about tactics and victories, it's about principles. Being true to oneself is more important than any small bribe from the oppressor can ever be. If you cannot see that DW was talking down to me even before I entered this thread (implying that a whole swathe of humanity are childish and stupid), or that Ominous was talking down to me when she accused me of 'whinging', 'making excuses' and not being made 'better' by the experience of abuse the way she was, then you have no idea what talking down to someone is. Change does not come from the oppressed taking endless abuse and being deferential in return. Look at history, this is not how change happens. Even Martin Luther King did not ask nicely, he demanded. Gandhi demanded. And they are the moderate voices of history. I will continue to demand. I will not be silenced by a system which demands the right to say no but will not recognise any such right on my part.

I have no idea if Ediself's comment was addressed to me or Ominous, but if she's claiming that arguing from the strongest facts available is emotional abuse, she will find that every scientist and academic in history has been an emotional abuser. Apologies if this is not what she meant, but if it is, it's absurd.

It is always the case that advocates of dominant ideologies will find excuses to silence people they disagree with, and bend whatever rules they have to in order to do this. You want a closed club of neoliberals mutually congratulating each other for 'coping'/conforming so well? Well, don't expect me to be a part of it. And don't talk as if you're talking for autistic people and giving good advice to parents. Admit that you're proponents of an aggressive ideology which refuses to recognise difference, and be done with it.

You read us wrong, entirely wrong, but I am obviously powerless to change that.

The posts from Ominimous that you referred to above were, I believe AFTER the post from you I called into question, that I wished you had simply not written. I have no trouble saying that she went out of line in her response after that point, and I made no defense of it. My recommendation would have been to ask a moderator to remove the whole section of posts from the board entirely, including many of hers, and I made that suggestion in the thread. It was an opening to you to say, "if you remove these, I am willing to edit this." A way to reconcile.

But you clearly have no desire to reconcile, because you see us as something deeply offensive and evil. Well, in that case, I would understand that it would be morally offensive to reconcile.

But you misread us.

I went out of my way to apologize for my mistakes in this thread, including directly and off the board to the person I felt I most owed it to. And that person ... didn't think I had done anything horrible.

I'm not in charge and I don't see myself as being in charge, but I do think it is important that parents feel safe posting here because if they don't we've left them to the cure-a-bies for getting information on how to help their AS children. ONLY on the parenting board does this forum try to offer a buffer for the parents, and it is for that sole reason and, yes, I will work to sell the reason for it to every person who wants to post on the parenting board. When I first joined I SAW parent after parent get upset and LEAVE, posting things like "I hope my child is never like any of you, you are horrible people" and "I heard this place was horrible to parents and you have proven that right." If you think that is better, great, have at it, but I do not.

Parents on this board are raising happy kids that are comfortable in their own skins and proud of being AS, whether you want to believe it possible or not. THAT is my goal, happy kids comfortable in their own skins and proud of being AS. I fail to understand why you would come onto a parenting board if that is not your goal, also, but I don't see a word about it in your post.

Wrong Planet has an activism board which you might find more to your taste. The goals are different, and the tone is different. Oh, and I pretty much never visit it.

Yep. But....I don't feel I went out of line and I take issue with that a bit, especially considering the larger picture. I have read others asking moderators for help with specific issues regarding "opinions" here and they have been told that everyone has a right to an opinion. If aspie1968 has an opinion and a right to it and uses that opinion to make profoundly incorrect statements about me, I have a right to respond to that with my opinion. Frankly, my opinion stands on this issue and may have been solidified even more today.



Well said and "me too" regarding the majority of the other boards outside of the women's forum. I personally know people with great kids (my perspective) who are so desperately mired in the "I hate autism and I hate being the parent of an autistic child" mentality that they will publicly post it because they are frustrated beyond coping. I am way more about supporting and affirming a different view with my own son. I also find many NT parents (if I disclose) cannot take my advice regarding parenting because suddenly I am "one of them" and couldn't possibly have a valid thought about parenting or anything else. It's profoundly damaging across the board, most especially for the children involved. It's interesting to note that prior to my disclosure I am told that I am a "wealth of information" and a "valuable resource."

The view I take is one that affirms that we who have autism are not helpless, irregardless of our position on the spectrum, and that we have a right to believe in ourselves. That includes attempting to function in the NT world in the face of adversity, if that functioning will allow us to meet our own needs, dreams, hopes and desires.

Rather than cultivating a climate of learned helplessness, I believe that (with any "dis" or "different" -ability) we have to advocate for accommodation and rights (vs. "normalisation") and we absolutely must not suggest that "because someone is on the spectrum" they will not and cannot achieve what they dream of, wherever it is they are on the spectrum. The reason autistic people struggle in this world is not as much because of autism, but because of the outside world's response to it. I will not raise my child in a climate of "learned helplessness". I will support him to achieve whatever challenges come his way, at his pace, in a gentle fashion that will hopefully allow him to achieve a sense of self-worth and a level of happiness and self-advocacy ability that I see missing in a lot of ASD teens, young adults and adults who become surrounded by a "you can't and won't ever be x,y, or z because you have autism." Sometimes, for us, this includes "that's how life is." Because that is how life is. All the advocacy in the world will likely not change the reality that the majority are NT and won't bother to understand us unless they are faced with one of us in their lives and actually want to know and understand us.

This resonates with me -> http://www.zimbio.com/Advocacy+and+Auti ... lplessness

I am going to take what you said a step further. This is what I believe. We can't force anyone to do what they do not want to do. I do agree that is how life is but I do not think it always has to be this way. If we are to receive anything from anyone like accommdations I do not believe it can be done through the spirit of demanding and hatred. I believe it has to be done through the spirit of love. I am going to go even a bit further.

Aspie1968, MLKJr did not speak out of a spirt of hatred. He spoke out of a spirit of love. He wasn't just about civil and equal rights for black people. He was about love for all of each other. In my opinion, MLKJr. was a man of God. History books tend to ignore the title of reverend before his name. In my opinion this isn't about gaining autistics any kind of rights at all. That is just a minute fraction. It is about all of human kind everywhere. We as human beings have so much hatred for each other. Look around you in this country my brother. Hatred is pervasive in this country. This country and the world is so polarized against each other. It is blacks against whites, blacks against blacks, sister against brother, wife against husband, etc. IMHO, We are all brothers and sisters on this planet no matter who or what we are.

I went to ingles the other day to buy a turkey sandwich. I was running errands. There was this woman who worked in the deli. Her daughter has cancer. She told me about her. I was eating and I just felt compelled to write a get well card. I bought this card and wrote and this is just a paraphrase.

"I believe everything is going to be ok and you all will be ok no matter what happens. All things are possible including the possiblity of the impossiblity of God failing. God cannot fail. I as an Asperger's Person know this because God has not failed me yet. Love is the answer."

I believe everything I said is true after much prayer, thinking, and meditation. Personally, I do not believe that the top down way that we have now is working and will ever work. What I mean by the top down way is the government or anyone forcing people to do things they do not want to do even if doing it is the right thing.

I believe that a better way is the bottom up way. I believe this is Jesus's way and I believe he showed me. I believe if we're going to fix this country and its economic problems I believe people should out of their own free will should love and help others who need help. Sometimes it could just be as simple as a greeting card. Will you all please help me to do this? I've started the process and I can't do it alone. I will if I must.

This is what I truly advocate
"Isaiah 2:4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

If you were gone for a week because of the moderators, then I'm pretty disturbed; really the only "offense" you committed was acting like an aspie in your argument style, which is kind of the fundamental reason for this site to exist.

If not, though, I'd say you can find plenty of different viewpoints on the politics forum and throughout most of the site. However, this particular forum is a bit different in that it's intended for neurotypical participation - in particular, neurotypical parents of children on the autistic spectrum. Yes, that means you'll see more people here who get to consensus by peer pressure rather than through logical argument, because that's the way neurotypicals behave. If you're going to hang out on this forum, you need to get used to that, it's just as impossible for them to change who they are as for us aspies to change who we are.

I do have to say, if you think the 'you have to swim' approach to 'sink or swim' is mistaken, I'm curious about what course of action you advocate instead - just sink while railing against the system? Or do you really think there's a third option for the original poster? But that discussion might be better placed on another board as well.


That didn't change because people like aspie1968 left, because those people never left: even when the parents were staying, there were plenty of aspies criticizing those parents. What changed was that you, and then others, started offering well thought out, useful advice from the neurotypical parents' point of view instead. With some of the responses carefully considered and usefully written from the parents' point of view, they had reason to ignore the other comments and stay rather than just to abandon the place.

However, in this thread, you've already admitted that you don't have the time to read all of aspie1968's posts carefully enough to understand them fully. So why bother responding? Hurried responses aren't likely to be useful to anyone. Save your time and spend it on making higher quality, less hurried responses to parents, especially those who are new to the forum.

I have found the evolution of this thread quite entertaining, and want to make a few points....

1. In life I have found that I have the most control over myself, so when I don't like a person, place or situation the thing that must change is me.

2. The OP was talking about delaing with her NT parent, so the NT parents tried to translate what was probably happening in the interaction.

3. The advise that was given was that the OP only had the power to change themself, therefore either change reaction to mom and situation OR change residence. You can't force another person to change. Typically, one doesn't post this type of issue on a parents board unless one is looking for advise from said parents.

4. The advise provided really bugged another member of the community - who as far as I can tell, hasn't given the OP any advise as to how to make their living situation more tolerable. It's possible that I missed the advise, as it may have been deep in some posts that I wasn't going to slog through.

So - I guess I'm just not getting what this is all about, one's quest to be right? Or is it to give some advise to a young adult living at home with their NT family who drives them crazy? I don't mind hearing that someone thinks my advise is crap, but its better if they are offering alternative advise. When they are just villifying those that offer opinions they don't like, it's hard to hear what they are offering. I guess my question is, was there any more advise in here for someone in the OPs position and would it be possible to get that clarified? I got lost in the bickering.

Thanks for that kailuamom. I agree with everything you've said. My initial posts (up until the bickering bits) were honestly about giving the OP my perspective regarding how I changed my life and got my own family to "fark off." It is very difficult living in a household where you don't feel respected or valued and I had to make choices in life to liberate myself from that environment. It hasn't been an easy road but a lot of families are not perfect. We can wish them to be what they are not, we can work to change perceptions around ASD as well, but that doesn't change anything when you're an older teen or young adult trying to find your way out of a situation that makes you uncomfortable. I hope I haven't offended the OP by sharing that.