Voilent attack at daycare...

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Thanks DW... I only posted one response to the toy smashing issue, so I don't think I was engaging in any ongoing conflict...

Nah, you guys were fine. I posted mostly because these things have a tendency to take on a life of their own, with all sorts of people jumping in. If I can prevent that, I much prefer it.

Avoiding the entire parenting style debate, I think there is a problem that you are dealing with that you aren't adequately addressing. Your child is saying that his actions are beyond his control, and you are countering by saying 'no they aren't, you can control them, and I am going to punish you until you do so'. The problem is that both of you are correct, but you don't know it.

Consider yourself in this situation: You are driving down a mountain road in some foreign country where you don't read the language, (lets say Saudi Arabia). The road is winding around the mountains so you can't see too far ahead, but it is a fairly clear day and the road conditions are fine. You can see a sign which says 70km/h so you get up to that speed, set the cruise control, and enjoy your trip. As you are driving along, you see a sign in Arabic. Since you don't read Arabic you have no idea what it says. You have already seen dozens of signs in Arabic, and this sign looks very similar. So you figure it is just a reminder to buckle up, or perhaps a billboard advertisement. About a mile down the road you see the sign again. Again you don't know what it says, so you just ignore it and keep on driving. As you turn a corner around the mountain you see a gaping hole in the road. You are going too fast to stop in time, and the mountain pass is too narrow to give you room to maneuver. So even if you slam on the brakes, your momentum carries you forward, into the sink hole, and down the side of the mountain.

Having totaled your car and landed yourself in the hospital, you would be sitting there thinking to yourself, "There is no way I could have avoided that. I wasn't doing anything wrong. I was following the speed limits, and driving safely." But all the Saudi people are annoyed at you. You just ran your car right off a cliff and they had to send out rescue helicopters and everything. You may say, "There was no way I could have avoided that". But the Saudis are thinking, "Of course he could have avoided that, there was multiple signs up which read: Warning! road washed out due to landslide, take alternate route".

The fact is that if you read the signs and understood what they meant you could have easily avoided the problem. But since you didn't recognize the signs and take an alternative route when you should have. You wound causing a big problem which you didn't see coming until it was too late. Likewise, your son is in a similar situation. He is getting into an environment, and doing things which inevitably lead him to getting stressed out, angry, and then lashing out. And the problem is that by the time he is so angry he is lashing out then it really is too late to stop. Even if your son slams on the metaphorical brakes, his momentum (rampaging emotions) still caries him over the edge and he winds up hitting people.

Trying to punish him for the hitting isn't going to work very well because by the time he gets into hitting mode, he has already lost the battle for self control. Punishment only works if the child has the self control and awareness to make a decision. He needs to be able to weigh the scales and say, "Do I want to hit this person and feel better, but suffer the punishment, or do I want to control myself and avoid the punishment." He can then realize that hitting the person is not worth the punishment, and thus avoid the hitting. However if your child is just so worked up and angry that he can't think strait then no amount of punishment in the world will fix the problem because your child isn't thinking rationally enough to consider the outcome of his actions. The penalty for acting up might as well be whipping to death. It isn't going to matter how severe you punish the child if the child isn't in the state of mind to understand the consequences when he gets angry.

So, what you need to do is not focus on the solely on end result, but help your child avoid getting in the situations in the first place. And there is several things that you can do. For starters, try teaching your child to read the signs of impending problems. Now I don't mean teaching him how to read Arabic. I mean teach him how to recognize his own emotions. I.E how to recognize when he is getting stressed out, angry, upset, etc. If he sees the warning signs of stress, frustration, and anger building up then he will be able to take actions to calm down prior to it being too late to stop.

The second thing you need to do is work with your son to find ways to effectively and safely handle his frustrations. What should he do when he gets angry besides punching and kicking people? You need to provide alternatives that your son can use to reduce his anger safely. Simply saying 'don't hit people' isn't going to work. You need to instead say, When you get angry do XYZ instead, thus you wont hit people, and you won't get punished. This could be taking a break and going outside, or taking his frustrations out on a punching bag or whatever. Using the metaphor again, your son needs to avoid the sinkhole, but in order to do that he needs to know what other detours are available to take.

Thirdly you might want to work with him to help him realize what situations are most likely to be problematic, and thus avoided, or handled carefully. For example, when you drive a car you usually don't worry when you can see far ahead down a strait road clearly during the day. But if you are driving on a foggy night on a narrow winding road then you generally slow down, and drive more cautiously. Likewise, your child needs to know which situations are likely to cause him problems so he can take extra care to avoid those problem areas.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to punishing the child for acts of violence. I am simply saying that if you just punish the child and then leave it there then you wont accomplish anything other then a child who repeatedly acts out, gets punished, and then blames you for being unfair and punishing him when he can't control himself. What you need to do is sit your child down and tell him that you don't like when he gets violent, and his actions are not acceptable. But you also understand that when he gets angry he has a hard time controlling himself. So you are going to work with him to find out ways to avoid him getting angry in the first place. That way he wont hit people, you wont get angry, and he won't get punished.

You may get some useful information by looking at this thread:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt114815.html

It is for a younger child, but the advice given is still pretty good. I have also written about this in a bit more detail in a book that I am working on. If you like I can send you a copy of what I have thus far which may help to explain things a bit better.

I need to bring back this thread because I am having issues here too. My dd is almost 7. She has only been severely violent 2 times and last night was one of those times (the other time was a year ago she attacked a boy and then became self abusive). Last night she attacked another girl rather severely and then turned her attack on me. Here is the story in a nutshell:

DD is mainstreamed at school and yesterday they had a field trip. I refused permission for her to go (she's never been on a field trip before-nor a bus with a whole class of 1st graders) but the principal really urged me to let her go. She cried in the am and the aide (one on one) urged her on to go and gave her a stuffed puppy telling her "take care of him on the trip". Well I think dd is too intellectually advanced for such notions but the aide proclaimed it a success and called me from the trip and said she's ok. After the trip they said dd wanted to call me from the location but they were in a cell dead zone.

Anyway, when I picked her up after the trip she was manic. Seemed happy but was bouncing off the walls. She "play" hit me and I thought to myself that was bizarre and not in her character to do that. Then, when I got her home she was barking at me (which she can sometimes do-I think she doesn't understand how she comes across). This was a little more aggressive than usual. She had very red bags under the eyes (which she always has to some extent but they were very pronounced-as if she'd been crying).

Well, later I took her to the health food store on the way to a pizza place (which we never go to but we were supposed to be meeting a friend there which I had put off for some time) and at the health food store she was crawling on the floor and baby talking. She wanted to go to the pizza place. She wanted to see this friend.

So we get to pizza place before they did. Everything ok. She eats pasta and some parmesan cheese (which they made for her specially because she won't eat what's on the buffet). I allowed her to have one half of a brownie (I know-big no no on my part but I was trying to reward her for field trip). She also ate some raw carrots. They arrived late and dd was almost finished eating. The other girl is very high energy. She's also socially percocious. The other girl tries to boss dd. But dd gets more and more aggressive. DD smashed the other girl's hand and dd said it was an accident but the other girl was crying. This caused dd extreme upset. I took her to bathroom to calm down and talk to her. She seemed ok. When we came back out & other girl was still crying dd lost it. That's when everyhing went downhill. Very aggressive. Very intent on hurting the other girl and me. Out of control. I pulled her out of the place kicking, screaming and making a huge scene.

This rage lasted for a long time. She came out of her carseat on the way home and hit, spat and yelled at me. Once we got home I put her in her room, where she has a calming corner. After an hour or so (where she was screaming off and on) she finally calmed down and I tried to get her to brush teeth before bed. She was incoherent and saying strange things. She said "You're not my mom. I don't know you. It's too late now." Now, mind you she is not yet 7 years old. She was not rational.

I thought give her a night to calm down, things will be better in the am. Perhaps the stress of the field trip set her off. This am she was just as bad. Woke up raging. Wouldn't get out of bed. Baby talking, begging not to go to school and doubled over in stomach pain. Upon arrival at school she told the teacher "The bus makes me bad".

Now I must say dd doesn't do well dealing with talk about emotions. If I try to say "maybe the field trip plus the pizza place was too much" she gets very angry. Normally she is not an angry violent child. She can tantrum but I can diffuse most of the time. I don't know how to dissect this situation nor do I know how to engage her with discussion on "what went wrong" or how to deal with these feelings differently.

Two other notable points: dd is being treated for chronic stomach aches that they think might be an ulcer. Also, she is on SSRI very low dose for debilitating anxiety. She has started some OCD behaviors so I am thinking perhaps she may be having negative side effects to the meds.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please, any suggestions at all. I don't know whether to punish her for this extremely violent outburst. I was so shocked last night I was just withdrawn. I was really freaked out. I feel she wanted to me to hug her or rock her or cuddle her but I felt this would be positive reinforcement for the outburst. So the questions is: was the resulting violence my fault for overloading her? Or does a punishment of some sort (non violent of course) need to occur?

Thanks.

Mama to Grace, I have one suggestion, at least: no more field trips. For a year or two I definitely think something in that situation set her off. So many of the things you described cry out "I'm stressed, I cannot cope, I need my happy place." While it is good that schools are always pushing us to let go of the tight reigns on our kids, sometimes we really do know best.

Next time, you drive your daughter. Or go along. No one knows her like you do. I know it's protective and you'll get those eye rolls from the staff, but I've done it and it helped. Remember, our kids WILL GROW UP, a little mama bear activity isn't going to stop it, but sometimes WE need to be the ones putting the breaks on just how fast the rest of the world is asking our kids to grow up. I've been like that with my son and he is growing up and away from me just fine; I'm preventing meltdowns, I'm not stopping his rush to independence.

She'll talk to you about it when she's ready. It may actually take her a while to go backwards and figure out for herself where her stresses were, and she may peg some of the wrong things. All that is normal.

My NT daughter tends to want a new mom when she's had a bad day. I don't let it get to me; kids say things like that because they have a limited choice of actions and words to deal with their frustration and hurt. She knows I don't believe her, so she'll add, "I really mean it this time." Lol, right. Sometimes I'll defuse it by asking, "OK, describe to me what your new mom should be like." The answer to that is where I hear the real issues

She should apologize to her friend, but things will have to even out for her first.

Violent outbursts happen at age 7. You are still learning the triggers and she is still learning how to self-mitigate. Another dangerous period is in the pre-teen phase, but we're so far so good on that; not sure if my son's hormones are rising late, or if the self-mitigation lessons sunk in just in time. I do know I felt like I had a deadline for getting the meltdowns and violence under control, and pushed things like an anger management group when he was in 4th grade. Gosh, I'm terrified to type that they are under control least we suddenly get a new one! People take me seriously, which is good. One of the Boy Scout dad's was commenting about a stressful outing (for all the boys) and noted that my son had gone off to the side alone quite often, and the dad seemed a little ambivalent saying, "I guess that was an OK thing." I told the dad that my son was doing exactly what he had been taught to do, in order to prevent a violent outburst. They don't see that violent ability in my son at all, and the dad looked at me a little funny, but I was just so proud that my son followed the steps and got through an incredibly difficult time! Which I tell you not to brag, but to let you know: your daughter can and will learn. You are in the thick of it right now, and I remember those years well, but keep at it. Find the triggers, teach her to find the triggers, work on mitigation routines.

My oldest son (who is about to turn 23) could be very violent when he was young....even brandishing a knife on his sister and choking her. I did not hesitate to call the police. Even though my son has a mental illness (early onset bi polar disorder) I made it very clear to him that this does not make it ok for him to touch other people. Im not going to say he turned out to be a wonderful person. Unfortunately he did not get the right diagnosis until he was 12 and by then already using illegal drugs as self medication. He has been in Jail and now prison but he has NEVER committed any violent crimes...mainly theft to get drugs.
I have two aspies. My daughter was a bit violent when she was little but that was also not acceptable. My 7 year old son who also has Asperger's went through a violent phase and nearly got kicked out of pre school for throwing a rock at a two year olds head (he was 4 at the time). I can tell you that conventional discipline does not always work with autistic kids. You need to get down on his level and talk to him or have him draw or type his feelings. Sometimes Aspies come off as sounding like brats mainly because expressing themselves it difficult. Teach him ways of expressing his anger without hitting, throwing or even touching another person. Give him a weighted animal to take to day care and tell him when he gets mad he can lay on the floor and squeeze his animal or give him a pillow or something soft to choke or hit. I personally like to scream sometimes.....talk to the daycare people and see if that is ok. My 7 year old squeezes his fists and screams then we suggest his weighted animal or blanket. Make it very clear that having Asperger's does not make it ok to hurt other people. I know this sounds simple but it does work.....I always tell my kids the golden rule "do onto others as you would have them do unto you". Ask him how he would feel if someone strangled him, if he gives you a bratty comment ask him to draw you a picture of how he would feel. Its very hard for Aspies to put themselves in others shoes but you can help them and teach them. Let him know that you still love him but it scares you when he hurts other people and tell him that grown ups have to go to jail when they hurt other people and you never want that for him.
Also PLEASE do not take his "lovey" away....you can not imagine the emotional damage that would cause. We tend to have very deep emotional attachments to inanimate objects and it would be like killing someone he loves.
Also if you can get him into a social group with other Aspies or HFA's this works wonders....good luck and remember when you get too angry just step away...maybe scream LOL .

I'm sorry but you not only took her to the health food store but THEN on to the pizza place after observing that type of manic and eratic behavior?
A lot of this thread has been about recognizing situations to avoid. I think you could have avoided this. When I pick my son up from school and he is in one of those manic moods, we go straight home and have a calm afternoon/evening reading, playing in the sandbox, just doing one-on-one things. Tomorrow is another day, the health food store can wait and another time can be arranged to see the friend at the pizza place or somewhere else. At her age, you need to be her first line of defense against getting overwhelmed and overstimulated.

Yes, bad parenting move. Duh. Looking back I can see the chain of events that fed off each other. At the time I was busy and interpreting the mania as happiness that she went on the field trip. DD has extreme social anxiety and the fact she went on the field trip at all was a huge step. I just didn't realize at the time that she was telling me (and everyone else) that she didn't want to do it and COULDN'T do it. I stupidly listened to the public school principal tell me how she needed to integrate into these activities at some point...might as well be now. I guess I am coming to terms with the fact that it was my fault---I didn't recognize the signs along the way. You have to be so alert and empathic to parent these highly sensitive AS children as they can become wounded by seemingly benign situations. My dd has been stressed for some time with the pressures of school this year and I am thinking this was just the proverbal "last straw". I didn't mean to post as if 1 + 1= 2 how could that be? I just needed to find out what the correct punishment should be, if there should be one at all. As a pp mentioned, whether there are mitigating factors or not we must teach our kids that it is never ok to attack another person brutally. But at what point did she become unable to control her actions? And how do I diffuse her at this point? Would keeping her home from school today have been the best measure?

This is just my knee-jerk reaction so please take it for what it is. I think the field trip, while a bit overwhelming, could have been tolerated if that was all she had been expected to tolerate that day. I agree with an earlier post that having her apologize to the friend should be where it ends as far as punishment.

It's hard to say where that line gets crossed of getting out of control. Tracker's post really does a great job of explaining. Another explanation I have been given is that when they have crossed that line, they are no longer utilizing their higher brain functions, the ability to think rationally, in other words. The part of the brain that is dominately operating when the child is overwhelmed is the brain stem which controls our fight or flight responses. With the utter clarity of hind-sight, my guess would be that the mainc behavior you observed at the end of the school day was indeed a sign that she was past the point of controlling her reactions. She was already in fight or flight mode and one or the other was bound to happen.

Sometimes when my DS has had a particularly bad day one day, I do keep him home the next day if he still seems discombobulatedand unable to get on track. I don't see this as giving in so much as giving him time to recover. We all have different abilities to recover after a traumatic incident so I try to give him the time he needs. I also try to make these days not just play and easy but helping mommy with the things he can, picking up toys, etc.

I would say that field trip was decidedly not a success.

What happened to the stuffed dog? I wonder if that could have some connection to the barking.

I see what you mean. No offense taken. My problem is that dd has severe school refusal issues and letting her stay home a day can have lasting negative consequences. She dosn't understand why sometimes she stays home and some days she can't. That's why, unless she's severly in need, staying home is a last resort. When my dd was saying the things about "you're not my mom. I don't know you." it felt like manipulation to me but perhaps that is my NT brain. She was trying to get me to say "oh no sweetie I love you." and hug her and comfort her. But I felt at the time it would be saying it doesn't matter how you act. That is very difficult as a mom, we love unconditionally but we are also charged with molding the best person possible out of who we are given. So I really needed her to understand that you can't just attack me and then I'm over it and I am ok. Today she is having sensory sensitivity. The rage seems to have subsided but she won't let me go near her or touch her. So a nice calming afternoon is in store just like we should have had yesterday. I hope I can repair this, not only should she apologize to the friend but I need to apologize for not heeding the warning signs.

Also the fight or flight thing is spot on. The episode was definitely the fight or flight response. DD seems to revert to fight or flight in difficult situations.

Thanks everyone.

Sorry, "barking" just meant that she was somewhat rudely giving me orders. Sorry for the figure of speech. The stuffed dog was unharmed on the field trip and given back to the principal's office

O, I have just the thing for you... Would you mind reading a 100 page or so book? Cause I think it might help you understand what is going on.

I will try anything. But your above post talked about getting the child to recognize the emotional precursers. My dd has never had any emotional recognition discussion. We used to have emotion cards for her to use. She couldn't properly identify the emotions. Her OT gave her a facial recognition test, she knew 2 out of 12. I don't know how to relate to my dd about emotions. She's very factual. Doesn't like discussing intangible things such as emotions or feelings. She doesn't even like when I say "you feel good" or suggest emotions to her. She was in play therapy and the therapist said she was a deflector. Emotions come up (even in a veiled play exercise), she ignores or changes the subject immediately. But, like I said, I'll try anything.

That reminds me, Tracker ...

Mama_to_Grace, if my son does physical harm to anyone, regardless of the reason, he has a specific consequences (I don't call him out on wrestling and harming me while in full meltdown; at that point I am using trying to physically propel him to a safer place and know what to expect). While you can see all the steps that led up to the violence, and your participation in allowing it to happen, if she doesn't get the usual consequences, (a) she'll be confused and (b) she'll lack the incentive to work harder on verbalizing her break down to you before it gets to that point. You are both still learning, but she has to learn to. One thing you can also do is apologize to her for not hearing what she was trying to tell you, and then use that as an opening to discuss ways she can make herself clearer to you. If you want to issue yourself a consequence so she'll feel it is more fair when she gets hers, that works, too.

If you don't have a "usual consequence," then you should develop one. Ours is a time out, fine, and one other consequence TBA. We told the kids physical violence got 3 consequences because it is THAT important they learn not to do it.

I do feel there is a time urgency on learning how to avoid these situations, as I noted in my earlier post, because you want her to have appropriate mitigation in place before she is too large and strong physically to constrain. I would never, ever, call the police on a child still young and small enough to constrain, but I can see the earlier poster's point when you get to a child that is older and larger (high school?). What we want - NEED - is for self-monitoring to be well in place before that period hits. My son knew how urgent I felt it was when he was 9 or 10; I told him. It is important for everyone's safety.

But it starts with BOTH of you learning what kind of day she cannot have, and knowing not to push it. Chalk this one up to a learning experience.

Ok, do you have an email address I could send the book to? If you don't want to post it, just send it to me in a private message.