Looking for opinion on my son before diagnosis (Aspergers?)

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I've always had trouble with the whole "theory of mind" thing. First, everyone is different, whether on the spectrum or NT, so whatever is stated as a general truth about people with autism is going to be wrong (as Caitlin pointed out). Second, in my discussions with my son, he has told me that he generally knows how NT's will feel in a given situation, he just can't predict how they will behave! To an outside observer, that can look like he doesn't know how they feel - but really, so many "experts" forget that it is the individual him/herself who is the real expert, not the psychologist. And if we don't get our information from them, we miss out on lots of important, interesting (and fun!) stuff.

Actually, my experience of adult mildly aspie men is that they practically follow a script.

I have a book called, "22 Things" that is my last boyfriend to a T.

I swear it was written for him. I don't think that would be the case if aspies really were all that different.

However, your child, because you can still mold him or her may actually be different--so there, the generalities do not apply.

Maybe it's more that mild aspies who are undiagnosed until adulthood tend to act the same.

Update and interested in comments on this....particularly the things my son has said today and yesterday.

My GP saw him today and we had a phone conversation afterwards so not to talk in front of...she thought he was fine (I actually thought he was odder than usual due to excitment etc ) and reassured me. She was also confident on the speech therapist front due to the nature of the referral note and thought she would be focused on AS. However she thought the best way forward was to get the full assessment and she's pushing to get that done.

I am going to get some follow up info tonight regarding the educational aspects as I have a friend who is the profession and is suggesting they are not totally making sense/following opportunities open to them...

What I find fascinating is some of things my son has said over the last few days and ask for comments......

Yesterday when I asked him about nursery he said this which I'm sure is quite difficult to believe to some " I am very very normal and I want to put all the children in nursery in jail"

Today when we had a quick conversation before nursery and I ask him to join in and talk to his friends " I don't like them , I want to put them in jail and play myself. When asked about individuals he said they were bad and when I asked about him he said he was bad too....

Finally on the approach to nursey he asked would he get to play outside today and I told him the teachers would decide. He said " I want you to decide Daddy, not the teachers, can you decide?" and then "why not?"

My point is this he is picking up the situation but beyond that imho his is indicating he doesn't like the control aspect.......would some so young be able to rationalise in this way if he was on the spectrum?Now I understand that those on the spectrum do become aware but would they understand the situation in this way at his age?

Psychohist,

One of the reasons aspies have a reputation for not having empathy is that they have to "think" about it.

That's not so good sometimes.

My aspie will occasionally say things that are just incredibly insensitive--indicating he has not thought about whatever the issue is.

I took him to task for behaving badly towards me, and he said, "But it was never my intention that this relationship would last."

If he really thought about it, he would never have said that.

(See, "22 Things" subheading "There Will Be Shock".)

Also, the aspie in question has to have a motivation to think about it. Most NTs would just be bothered by someone saying that---and have no need for a motivating factor.

YYZ,

Clearly, your son is picking up on a lot of issues. Does he think everyone (including himself) is bad because no one follows all the rules, all the time? Some kids on the spectrum are rigid rule-followers and if they have learned that "bad people go to jail" and someone said something about the kids being "bad" because they didn't follow rules, or they were loud, or any of the other thousands of things that can happen in a classroom that can cause someone to say the class is not behaving as it should, a child could come up with the conclusion that the children should be in jail. This is rather good deductive reasoning, and can be made by either NT or ASD children.

Do you know whether the school uses withdrawal of outdoor playing as a punishment for misbehavior? If so, your son may want you to make the decision about playing outside because he believes you are more likely to let him play outside than his teachers are - they may be less tolerant of "misbehavior" than you are, and he may find himself "in trouble" more with his teachers than he does with you. If so, he is making a wise choice, in wanting you to make the decision (even though you can't - children this age often don't realize that parents don't have control at school). Again, this is not something that is indicative of either NT or ASD thinking. There is a problem, and your son wants it solved. He sounds quite bright!

I would wonder why he was thinking about who is or isn't normal, though. I would wonder what the adults talk about in front of the kids, when they think the kids aren't paying attention. Kids tend to be very aware when adults are talking about them, even if it looks like they're absorbed in playing. It's best for all adults to be careful of what they say about children when those children are present.

With respect poppyx, I'm afraid you have entirely missed the point.

YYZ, people on the spectrum can be some of the most perceptive individuals you will ever meet. Some autistic children will be in their own world and not aware of others' true intentions, other kids on the spectrum will be so anxious and worried that they will read into everything and will over-rationalize. Others are somewhere in the middle.

So yes, a child could certainly be processing information in that way and still be Autistic. Again, autistic people cannot be defined by a simplistic label - they are as complex as you or I. There is really no single thing that you identify and say "no children on the spectrum can do that" - except have widespread social success and a lack of communication issues. The diagnostic criteria for ASD are broad for a reason - to accommodate a broad spectrum of behaviours, challenges, and abilities.

One other note on outdoor play - if recess helps your son blow off energy and steam, and if it's important to his ability to function optimally for the remainder of the day - YOU should make the decision about whether the teachers remove recess as a disciplinary action. As a parent, you have the right to request that they not remove outdoor time as a consequence, and any school worth going to will agree to this request and find a more appropriate method of discipline.

The outside play aspect is somewhat ad hoc.....here in Scotland, good weather is at a premium...so pre-school nursery's tend to maximise the weather when they can. Today they spent the whole day outside.

My wee guy I suspect likes outside because well, he's a child and also the freedom associated...I always hated classrooms.

I am lucky enough to have a professional contact who is going to help assess the situation off the record but his opinion albeit from a distance is that he would tend to think he is NT....we had a long specific chat tonight

I'll be having another nursery meeting and spending a day with him in nursery this week.

I think we are swinging back in our opinon that he might well be NT as much as you can see things in everything you can also at times be surprised by little quirks that happen which swing you another way.

I feel lucky because my wee boy is wonderful and reading thriugh this whether at some stage he may be diagnosed AS this won't change. If he is not AS he certainly may have habits and quirks that are towards the spectrum...and I don't feel particularly uptight about that. I can see there are no definitive or easy answers.

Thanks again for the replies, it has been very informative and I will keep you all posted.

Just an update...the nursery has been closed for a few days-official holidays.

I am due in on Friday with him, as per the previous agreement-I think we are going to hold off having a chat with the nursery till after that but I think it's fair to say after being quite upbeat that he is not on the spectrum his mother and I are not able to shake off certain concerns.

He's been a bit more challenging this week but nothing actually you might put down to being characteristic of AS but we'd both agree we've been a bit hard on him and there's little doubt it is playing on our minds. We continue to see contradictory evidence and we don't know if we are over analysing the situation and him. Of course reading the complexities involved in diagnosing AS and the range of behaviour involved and how often people adapt....you are left asking is this actually a condition rather than just a description of a person's personality?

I am becoming increasingly resentful of the nursery because they have not been clear, I think they have inferred things rather than an honest assessment. That honest assessment could have included "look we are not certain but.....".

There's a bit of me uncertain if a positive diagnosis is entirely a good thing......of course if it were to improve his life then yes that's no problem....however I just wonder if a quirky, fun, loving and clever wee boy might just adjust into the world ok if left without a label.

As always be interested in any insight and thoughts. Thanks.

Caitlin, if your point was that you can't change a kid on the spectrum...I've figured that out, now.

XY---be very careful of saying, "tendencies behavior on the spectrum"

Neurotypicals are NTs and aspies are aspies, and never the twain shall meet.

Being toward the spectrum is like being toward being pregnant.

Alternative brain wiring doesn't really HAVE that much of a spectrum--just better language skills and coping mechanisms. It's really important to know the difference because aspies are so unlike NTs that it's not fair to either to think one is the other.

If you've ever spent a lot of time around an undiagnosed aspie, you would eventually see them as being pretty alien to your average NT. If your son is NT, regardless of WHAT he's like, he's not like an aspie.

It still sounds like you and your wife are uncertain, so why not go ahead and have him evaluated. If he is diagnosed as AS, then it will only help you to understand him and help him better. If he is not, then great, the evaluation is not going to hurt him. I think it will put your mind at ease to go ahead and find out.