violent daughter

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(On a side note, listen to Willard)

Seems she's quite a lot of difficulty.
The best solution to a rage-in-progress is to get any triggers out of the area. Don't try and sent her to her room, rather get yourself and anyone else away and into another place. Let the raging child wherever she is - without further triggers, the rage won't be stretched longer by you interfering with it.

After it's over, come back into the room and demand to know what caused the rage. And more importantly WHY that thing caused it:

"You told me to wear a sanitary pad!"
"Why is that making you upset?"
"Not upset!"
"Okay.. wrong word.. what is the right one"
"It's in the way!"
"Can we try other choices"
"Maybe"

You also need to talk to her about "Calming Methods" or "Calming Tools" - things she can look at, touch, manipulate.. or places she can go where she feels safe and protected and where no one will follow her. And you need to arrange these things with her. Together. Give her credit to be able to make decisions on how to deal with her next meltdown - and let her learn to follow up with your discussed choices.. your "contract".

And don't use the social services threat on her if she's ASD. If you're going to do it, just do it. Otherwise (and I hope you decide to solve this yourself, because social services will screw it up bad) you need to have more reasonable 'cause and effect' contracts with her - especially (and at first only) regarding the most important things: Like teaching her that hitting is an absolute not permitted.

Contract:
- When she does a terrible thing - like hitting you or the other daughter - all her clothes go into the storage locker for a day.
- If she breaks a lamp, one of her toys goes into the storage locker.

** Important: She has to know what you are going to do as punishment, but more importantly WHY you are doing this as punishment because sometimes the logic doesn't compute on its own.

As for stoppping the rages... It may not happen. But if you can get the "Don't hit" into her head, it should stay there even during the rage. And again, you are staying out of the room/scene as much as you can during such times.

I agree you should not intervene when she is raging - do not engage with her at all. Usually that does mean removing yourself from the area, going to another room rather than her leaving the room. Engaging will only make it worse. Don't argue and don't give her attention.

I know from my experience, there are different types of rage. There is rage like my son where he 'checks out' and there is nothing in the world that will bring him back until he is done. Then there is the angry teenager rage where there is a lot of emotion and anger. Both can be equally violent and beyond difficult.

If you find that not engaging with her significantly reduces her outbursts then you are dealing with normal teen rage and this is a very good thing. If your lack of engaging has no impact on the severity or length of the rage, I think you are dealing with something else and you should see a doctor.

I don't know that the not engaging works for all.

My DS can avoid a rage if we stop engaging when we see it coming. However, once started, he seems to actually need us near him and it wont stop until we have restrained him. If we leave the area and avoid restraint, it will continue to escalate. As he's getting a little better at recognizing his issues, he once asked us to restrai9n him before he even really melted. I have been told that it may be part of the sensory issues and that he needs the deep pressure?

I don't really get it. Last night he melted down and I used a blanket for restraint (which is new and learned here). It was much easier on all of us. this morning we talked about it and I asked if he feels better afterward and he said yes. That the pressure will continue building until released.

+1.........also speaking from personal experience.

I wish I had useful words to offer, but I don't... only this. Anyone who suggests that the reason your kid is completely out of control is your failure to be firm is at best over-simplifying things. Is there something you're doing wrong? Who knows. If we all knew the exact right thing to do in every situation, we'd be gods. I know that there's a good chance that she just can't put into words what's bothering her. I had trouble with it, too. I can write it, given the time. But on the spot, I just know it's all too much.

I can't promise it will fix the violence, but I do recommend a book called Parent Effectiveness Training. There's instructions early on telling you how to use active listening. It can be hard to take the time and keep your cool, but it will be worth it. Also, the tendency to lecture, scold, and correct that is common in us as parents can set things off. One of the hardest things to do is to be accepting, especially when their behavior is so unacceptable. But everyone needs to feel accepted.

That said... I couldn't begin to promise that these problems could be so easily solved.

So true, Irishwhistle, and it's not really different in principle with NT kids.

A very general observation I've made of many parents today is they are TOO lenient on their kids. For example: Nothing burns me up more than parents of, say, third-graders who say that they're allowing their kids to make their own decisions.

It's not a BAD thing for kids to learn to take charge of their lives. What IS bad, though, is that kids have TOO much leeway in their preferences/likes/dislikes. Parents should not compromise in bringing up children who are disciplined and confident. My public face is that of a piano teacher. But behind closed doors I demand that students keep high performance standards with no excuses for poor work, that students be aggressive in everything they do (not just piano), and they learn to handle mistakes with a confident, intentional, unapologetic poise (yeah, I MEANT to do that). I also talk to these kids, find out what's going on at home/school, and I try to counsel them with whatever issues they have, and for some of these kids piano lessons are therapeutic. In a nutshell, I treat these kids as though they were my own children--sometimes it seems they are more important than my own children, but that's my general attitude.

How DARE these parents undermine the work of their talented children at the hands of compromise for the sake of a child's whim and letting them quit!

I'm the same way with my own children, of course. I had such high hopes for my son (my oldest), but he's proven to be more of a challenge than I expected. I can't "draw him in" to what I do, but we do have a loving relationship. It's my much calmer, more sophisticated 1-year-old that seems more "teachable" and more eager to do things. We're going through potty-training right now, and my son, who's 3, absolutely REFUSES. My daughter, though, can't WAIT to go potty. When the boy caught on to the fact that his sister was going every hour on the hour, he suddenly got it in his head that maybe he should be doing the same thing. We're getting results from her, but not him--but there's time. But the whole experience is making me wonder if I haven't underestimated my girl.

Part of discipline in general, whether it's learning the ABC's, learning piano, going potty, consistently putting toys away, doing chores, or whatever, is that "real world" issues force us to do things that are unpleasant. When my son notices that his mother has left the house and her car is gone, he FREAKS OUT. Massive separation anxiety, which we thought we'd eliminated over a year ago, but their time with us (mommy/daddy time) is out of balance because I have to work in the evenings, too, and sometimes I'll only have 10 minutes to come home for a bite to eat before I'm off to my next activity. Mom is more of a constant. So now I'm in the position of telling my son that mom had to leave but she's coming right back. This, of course, does no good whatsoever. So I've resorted to spanking as a means of making these unacceptable whining/crying fits more unpleasant than simply having to deal with the fact that mom left for a few minutes. It's gradually starting to improve, but he has to learn to control himself. Keep in mind that spanking is most effective the LESS it is used. We've brought up our children so far that they are both obedient and independent, knowing what to expect from us and what we expect from them. They are aware of the unpleasantness of life and they are learning to weigh their actions or refusal of action against undesirable consequences. We're hoping that as they grow older they will see how this works in interpersonal relationships with their peers and develop better social skills than me! I just think that protecting children from the ugliness of life is the wrong way to go about it, but rather forcing them to engage in unpleasant activities strengthens emotional responses and the endurance of the mind. It's wrong to be unreasonable when dealing with children. But it's a greater failure not to equip children for the adult world.

It's about discipline that leads to self-discipline. I mentioned spanking, and I do think our daycare's discipline policies and philosophies are a tad on the namby-pamby side ("we don't 'punish'"). Their approach deals with removing a kid from a situation in which the child seeks attention. To a child, "negative" attention is still attention, and setting themselves up for a spanking is a means through which they manipulate their teachers/parents. So we don't punish, we simply eliminate the child's ability to seek attention or we withhold rewards. Hey, whatever works. Between their home life and their daycare, our kids are better behaved and more verbal than even some kids who are in "better" homes (using that term loosely) or more expensive schools.

My whole philosophy of discipline isn't really about the means through which the child is disciplined. It's the focus on the end result. Even with autistic or aspie kids, you simply cannot protect them from everything, nor SHOULD you. Something I've observed with my own children is that unpleasantness is measured in different ways, not all of which are necessarily unpleasant (irony, I know). Something that works with my son but not my daughter, even more effective than spanking, is a physical punishment called "the spider," (like the song, "The Itsy Bitsy Spider"). It started out innocent enough. I'd sing the song, very slowly, and pretend that my fingers were a spider crawling up his leg. At the end of the song, the spider would "attack" by tickling him. It was fun. Got lots of giggles. But as kids often do, he outgrew the whole tickling thing. Because he doesn't like it anymore, it's taken on a new meaning. If I give him a directive and he disobeys, all I have to say is "spider" and he corrects his behavior. It works everywhere--in the car, when he's misbehaving at a restaurant, whatever. And I don't even have to lay a hand on him. It's become a catch-all word for unpleasant consequences, a sort of code word that means anything from "I'll take that toy away" to "time out" to "no treat for you," not necessarily physical consequences.

The end result we want to see is a repeated pattern of self-correcting behavior. They don't know how to see it from beyond their own perspective, so we're like another pair of eyes. The goal is that our children no longer need us for that AND they pick up on the "why" of what we/they do. Punishment at this stage invariably ends in tears and a time-out, something we refer to in our house as "the cooler," which just means a time of decompression, not necessarily isolation. When the crying stops, we remind the child of what they did that triggered our response, the child acknowledges the behavior was inappropriate and apologizes, we let the child know that we are NOT angry and that we correct him because we love and care about him, and when we walk out of this room all is forgotten.

Contrast that with the way my father punished me: My father never showed remorse for pulling a belt on me, never acted as though he really cared or even wanted to understand, and even seemed to have a strange, perverse eagerness to hit me. This phase lasted from early childhood all the way into my early teen years when I got strong enough to give it back. Something I do allow my son to do, though it's all in fun and he doesn't know why yet, is a sort of ritual in which we reverse roles and he "punishes" me for something he doesn't like. He gets to see it from my perspective, which is that he's been taught that it's wrong to hit people so he doesn't really want to hit me. But I'd rather he take out his pent-up anger and frustration on me NOW than start fist-fights when he turns 14.

I think that with autistics and aspies (speaking from my own perspective) the problem is that there are so many MORE unpleasant consequences for us and our parents really have to do a lot more digging beneath our quirks to understand us than with an NT kid. To be prepared for an NT world, disciplining us is more about becoming aware of our own behavior and how it might be misunderstood. My parents just expected me to be normal, and adapting was all up to me. I learned a few things: Never trust NTs outside your own family. Avoid talking. Avoid people. Use few words--it makes people more curious and more eager to get to know you, even though all you're trying to do is keep from looking like an idiot. If you can't make yourself understood, find someone who understands you and let them speak for you (my wife is EXCELLENT at this). Discipline must always be within the realm of what the child understands, which will be quite different for an aspie than an NT. If you WANT to inspire violence from me, take away my piano and my clarinet (piano+clarinet=purpose in life). If you really want to punish me, take away phone/internet/History Channel privileges or force me to go to a party! Physical punishment for me is acceptable punishment, just don't be abusive about it.

I disagree with much of what AngelRo wrote, not all, but much. What the peer reviewed evidence suggests is that behavior modification by means of negative reinforcements (punishment) accomplishes a reduction or elimination of the target behavior. However, in and of itself it does not teach replacement behavior, which is a huge problem.

Further, in very simplistic terms, it teaches the kids to sneak. They have learned that they want to avoid the negative reinforcement, rather than having habituated and internalized the correct behavior. Those of us who were raised in very authoritarian households often had pretty wild teen years, as we got our "sneak" on. This can be very stressful to a kid on the spectrum, because they often don't have very effective "sneaks".

So for instance, your child is freaking out about mom leaving. Getting spanked may teach the child NOT to have a fit. But, have you taught the child how to handle the anxious feelings that have come up.

OR, if a child is running inside, it is better to tell them what you want them to do "walking feet" rather than "don't run".

Amen and Amen!! !! I was in so much trouble growing up I eventually just shut down, took my beatings because I just wasn't a perfect child and somehow just "deserved" whatever it was my father was going to do to me that day. Part of the problem I have now (which really isn't a problem) is I made up my mind I wasn't going to worry about being abrasive/non-abrasive but rather just be "me." If I get in trouble, then I'm getting in trouble because the world is an unjust place. So I treat people around me the way I'd want to be treated when I HAVE to be around other people, otherwise I isolate myself, keep myself out of harm's way, and focus on my work. I RARELY have problems with other people that way, so no need to feel like I'm "sneaking" and constantly be afraid. With my own father, all it took was sitting quietly on my bed to get in trouble. After he died when I was 14, I promised myself I'd never be afraid like that again.

But another thing about "sneaking": Something I NEVER picked up on was that other kids got in trouble when "sneaking." I've worked with children of all ages, and they never get anything by me. It's those "eyes in the back of your head" that, you're not sure how they got there, but you know what children are up to at all times. And I'll bust them for it, too. The deal with me growing up is I internalized the "sneaking" more so than others. I didn't pick up on the fact that other "troublemakers" were actually taking the teacher/adult reaction and making it into a great big joke. There's no wrong way to do this. Why is it that the biggest idiot in the class is either: a) The one other kids, even the bullies, leave alone, or b) the most popular? Not me, though. I withered. And it was probably the beatdown I got at home that made school more difficult. My own children bully each other, which I wouldn't allow except for the fact that they are sensitive to each other's feelings and are genuinely remorseful when the other gets hurt, even if it's something as "harmless" as my girl taking one of my boy's prized hotwheels cars. At one time that was cause for a tantrum. What eventually happened was they started working things out in trade or simply "borrowing," outright just giving his precious cars away for his sister to play with, which after about 15 seconds she's done and gives them right back. WE (as parents) didn't teach them that. But I think they have a better understanding of sharing than most adults. I'd much rather my children learn lessons being bullies, keeping an assertive attitude around others, growing up to be the "take charge" kind of adult I could never be, and really be successful in all areas of life than shuffling around all sad and depressed like their father did at the same age.

It probably doesn't show in the tone of my post, but the reality is we aren't dictators at my house. I mean, SOME things are not to be questioned. Certain specific situations demand absolute obedience (emergencies, crisis management, extreme circumstances). But that's more about safety than it is about "just because I said so." The main point that I'll always stand behind is life doesn't always give us choices when we're faced with making the toughest decisions. Being constantly faced with certain kinds of stress builds the kind of mental (and even spiritual) stamina and critical thinking. I do this through musical discipline because it's my "kung fu." Martial arts accomplish the same thing.

You also mentioned "replacement behavior," which I agree is also important. The lesson in sharing was something that my kids figured out on their own without parental supervision, but it's the same kind of idea. The thing about separation anxiety is that my boy is mentally mature enough not to give into it. He misses his mom, sure. But he knows good and well mom is coming back and that he should pick up one of his toys and play until she returns. The drama and waterworks in that situation is a little much, and he knows there are limits to our tolerance. He's got to learn to dry it up.

Wow. Isn't it great to know that there are people who have it all figured out. I know when my kids are not responding to all the things that are supposed to work, there's nothing I like better than having someone come up and confidently tell me exactly what I should be doing to make the little monsters toe the mark. I'm sure that if I follow this sage advice, my kids will at some point stop actually attempting to kill each other when someone takes someone else's stuff and suddenly start bargaining fairly end justly without any guidance or interference from me except to tell them that I won't tolerate them crying when they feel bad.

You can cry all you want around our place. You may not change circumstances with it, but you can do it. And spanking only made things worse. We stopped spanking and started listening without judging. Things improved. Perfect, no, better, yes. Natural consequences, not arbitrary ones, prepare you for life. The opportunity to make choices, as long as they are within the bounds of what a child can judge and are not safety related, builds confidence. At the very least, choices should be discussed with the child as long as that child is old enough to understand what is being discussed. I sure as heck wouldn't make a child continue in music lessons if they hate them. Yeah, it's a pity to see talent go to waste. But some things are optional. If they aren't happy in it and it isn't really necessary for their well-being, if in fact forcing them to continue would cancel out the benefits of continuing, then yeah, I'd let it go.

I dont know, theres something kind of mean and underhand about transforming that spider game from something that used to be a fun activity into something mildly threatening and punishing . I wonder what its like from your kids point of view? I dont doubt that you feel you're doing the right thing, Angelrho, but certain elements of your letter didnt leave me with a good feeling. Spanking the kid when he cries because his mother is leaving? Come on, you can do better than that.

BTW - We made my NT son finish a year of piano (because he started it). After it was through, we let him discontinue. Well, what do you know, by 8th grade he was one of the most committed, driven music students in school. Now he says that music @ school is his life.

My belief is that by supporting our son to make choices that worked for him, he has found joy in the direction he wanted to go. BTW - he avoids the piano, he plays the sax and is trying every wind and brass instrument, but avoids the piano.

Not sure how much my opinion on this topic will matter to others, but i wholeheartedly agree with IrishWhistle. Respectful parenting and truly listening to my children have produced far better results in my family than any of the many other parenting approaches i have tried through out the years, which have included punishments such as spankings, time outs, and grounding. A couple of concepts i like to throw out there to people are Consensual Living, and Nonviolent Communication. Google them when you have time.

On the topic of the meltdowns, i know someone else mentioned their child seems to need to be near them during these episodes and i wanted to mention that my son (11) is the same way. The more i separate myself from him, and/or ignore him the more the meltdown escalates. He can't handle for me to ignore him when he feels so out of control. My son has also told me that being restrained in a bear hug and carried to his room helps him feel more calm, but he hates being in his room while he's melting down. He feels like it is too small of a space. I find this interesting because the bedrooms in our house are relatively large. When he is overloaded it seems suffocating to him in his room. He even feels better just having the door open. I will agree arguing with him during a meltdown is pointless and only escalates it farther, but he needs to know i am there acknowledging him and listening. Maybe it's comforting to him that i am in control because he feels he's not. I don't know. I have never tried the blanket restraint, maybe i will ask my son his thoughts about it.

I also feel my family will probably benefit from me reading Tracker's book, and i intend to do so as soon as possible.

To the OP, i know how frustrated and hopeless you must feel. My son has had violence issues his whole life that we are still working on. It can be very exhausting, painful, and disempowering to have your own child responding toward you with violence, but i don't believe social services is the best option, and medication i would give a lot of thought to before making a decision. Some things i have done to help my son are giving him options to express his rage that don't hurt anyone. He knows he is allowed to throw stuffed animals at his walls, punch the pillows or the bed, scream as loud as he wants to in a room with the door closed, etc. Sometimes jumping on the trampoline helps, sometimes he will break sticks in the backyard. The part we are still working on is directing him to these activities before he hurts someone or the meltdown starts. Learning to walk away has been his greatest struggle, but i hope with enough repetition he will get the hang of it eventually. I've even allowed the boys to throw stuffed animals at ME on occasion, and pillow fights every once in a while usually don't hurt anything. I try very hard to stress that it's okay to be angry as long as no one gets hurt. I will separate the boys from each other if i can't trust my son not to hurt one of his brothers. Sometimes on a bad day they are made to play in different rooms, while i stress that it isn't a punishment, but is a safety precaution because i can't allow him to hurt his brothers. He knows that if i can trust him to stay in control he will be allowed to be with his brothers again. At that point he will usually choose to engage in self calming activities and after a while demonstrate he has regained his logic.

I hope something i've said will help you even a little bit, even if it just helps you to feel less alone in what you're going through. This group exists as a place to find support, not just advice. I think we should all try to keep that in mind when someone is dealing with such a tough issue.

Peace

Wow....seriously? This just makes me SAD. This might work with an NT child (and not in a postive way, I might add), but not an Aspie child. Been there and had it done to me, many, many times. It didn't stop the behavior - in fact, it made it worse.

I'm not sure I understand the assumption that spanking necessarily does not resonate with NT children in positive ways. ANY kind of punishment or other disciplinary action loses its effectiveness with 1) overuse, which desensitizes the child, and 2) inconsistency in its application.

My 3-year old is still to young to "get" (understand) "time-outs." Instead, what I'll do is say, "son, you're really upset and stressed out and you just need some time in 'the cooler.' You're not in trouble, but you need to calm down and you may come out as soon as you feel better." If I see a tantrum about to hit, I'll head it off at the pass and send him immediately to his room. He's typically not there more than 5 minutes before everything is right again. But we never fail to do this and it ALWAYS WORKS.

Spanking is at the more severe end of the spectrum, and we were actually tougher with spanking when we started out. The idea is not the spanking itself. It's communicating the fact that something wrong has been done, it has been deliberately done, and there are consequences for actions. It has grown into something that is much less physical than it is behavioral. The child understands that something terribly wrong has happened, he is made to feel upset, and because he understands that the behavior was inappropriate, he apologizes to the person who has been wronged, he gets hugs and kisses, and then the whole thing is forgotten--with the exception he never does THAT again. We play around the house a LOT, and we're sometimes rougher just playing than with actual spankings. The difference is the context of the action. I can pop him on the leg as he's running past me (just trying to get my attention) and he'll burst out in giggles. Then it's a game--he tries to see how close he can get to me without me popping him again, at which point sometimes he wins and sometimes I win. It's all in good fun. Effective punishment does NOT take the appearance of a game. There's no difference in the physical force involved, there's no lasting psychological trauma (unless learning right from wrong constitutes trauma, in which case we're ALL scarred for life), and we've never left any marks (bruises) on him at all.

My experience with children of all ages is that there are two things that the most effective in communication: Their names, and physical contact. Maybe it's just the aspie part of me, but I'm terribly squeamish about physical contact with kids who aren't my own (it's a necessary part of what I do with teaching piano, but still weirds me out). Nevertheless, one can't deny the impact of the occasional encouraging pat on the back or how quickly incorrect hand positions can be corrected when a teacher actually moves the students fingers to where they should go. There's just something about that, along with occasionally actually using the student's name, that seems to make everything magically seem to work. I don't have a problem with verbally slapping a student in the face (figuratively speaking), and I'm no different if a child's parents are actually in the room when it happens. Any kind of corrective action has to be weighed against its actual effectiveness, and I'll always point myself, other parents, and other teachers towards a good review of reinforcement theory to determine what drives the effectiveness of various disciplinary approaches. At the most basic level, physical contact and calling a person by name are by far what I've found to be the most effective in most situations.

I don't mean to sound like I'm in love with spanking. I just don't see why it HAS to be such an evil method. I mean, if you're prone to violent behavior yourself, DON'T DO IT. I also think it's most effective reserved for the most extreme circumstances when all other options are exhausted. If you are prone to overusing spanking, then it's not going to work anyway and your best bet is to change your strategy to avoid spanking. I think it's been at least two weeks by now since I've spanked one of my children. More times than not it isn't necessary, and I've mentioned before there are simpler ways of communicating a warning to a child which will stop a lot of the problem behavior in its tracks. Further, spanking isn't even really effective after about 8 years old. But by that age, depending on the child, something as simple as taking away TV/movie privileges might seem to them much more excruciating and time consuming than a quick and easy spanking. I've known several kids who'd actually request their three licks if it would spare them a lecture.

That's the NT kid. I had to deal with this myself as an aspie kid, so my daily whippings arose from my father's failure to understand me at all. I think maybe SOME aspie or autistic kids might respond well to it, but any kind of punishment or discipline has to be executed with more care than with the typical rebellious disobedience. I've only had one autistic child that I ever taught (mainstreaming in school, and unfortunately it was my first year on the job) and plenty of disturbed kids (foster children, abusive homes, medicated/unmedicated disorders such as extreme cases of ADHD). In those cases, disciplinary actions are no less necessary, but they must be done with great care. Even though I'm no longer in the classroom, I do make the effort to understand the homes these kids grow up in, what meds they're on, and so on in order to be the best teacher/counselor (de facto) I can and help them reach their goals. Discipline need not be understood as ONLY punishment, but rather focusing their mental energies on a positive path, sometimes something not available to them once they leave my studio.