Lying

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As a parent myself I now believe that it is intensely unfair to expect a different set of ethics from our children than we do from ourselves and each other as adults. Obviously, I set standards and expectations in order to protect and teach my daughter but if she is capable of making a rational argument about her behavior (she's nearing nine now - she's been quite capable of forming fairly elaborate defenses since she was 5) I will listen and even forego punishment depending on her intentions in the suspect behavior. I'm able to do this because my daughter has a very strong sense of fairness and lawfulness coupled with a really poor ability to lie. It's what works for us and, I hope, it has given her a sense of self advocacy. She doesn't always get her way but she knows I will always listen to her and give her that respect.

As emotionally immature as she is, she is incredibly mature in her ability to reason. I don't subjugate the latter because of the former.

Can you say how young? Should I start with my daughter when she turns 3 next month?

I think my son was 4 1/2 and my daughter may have been 3 - - being the second child, she had to get an allowance as soon as she understood that was what her brother had. Well, not exactly at that moment - - we made her wait a bit to give the change some weight, and to test out if she really was ready.

They should have some sense of numbers and math or they won't understand the concept. They don't have to be able to actually DO the math, but they have to understand that 8 is greater than 3, that 2.95 means 3 dollars, and so on. And they have to have a sense of what it means when you tell them their bank balance is $10 v. $3.

Maybe some shopping games at home will let you test it out.

draelynn - this word, intentions, really caught my eye here. It takes time and patience to stop and try to understand a person's intentions. It is something we should all practice.

People regularly - daily - make assumptions on a persons intentions by their outward behavior. They read expressions and body language, they observe tone of voice and subtle clues that lead them to decide - in the basic sense - 'friend or foe'. When it comes to safety for AS kids, it is widely accepted that they cannot read these cues that will let them know that someone is trying to take advantage of them or potentially worse. It is what makes them vulnerable.

Yet, the reverse side of that is also not understanding the weight of the words they use. They cannot decode the silent meanings in, what, to them are simply descriptive words used to answer questions. Being 'blunt' is an emotionally descriptive term. The opposite of 'blunt' is 'tactful'. Tact is an emotionally derived strategy to maneuver around the feelings of others. Therefore 'blunt' implies an intentional desire to cause harm with the words. This is why those with AS use the word 'truthful' instead of 'blunt.' There is no intention to be hurtful. I often say that NT's and AS are speaking two different languages. This is what I'm talking about. The points of view are so divergent that one cannot understand the other.

Something as simple as 'How was dinner?' becomes a battle ground. AS is known for taking things literally. Well, that question is pretty straight forward - it is asking for a critique of the meal. That is what the words mean. The emotional needs of the person asking this question needs quite a feat of mental gymnastics to decipher.

Okay - it's my mom asking, she makes dinner every day so does she want to know how the food tasted or is she asking something else? Whats that look on her face? She's expecting something but what?

And before that feat can even begin, a kid needs to realize that this seperation in thinking exists. For an NT, the emotional needs of the person asking the question are obvious. So obvious, that they have trouble even understanding that they cannot be obvious to someone else. If it is impossible for it to not be obvious then the person must be intentionally choosing to answer in a hurtful manner.

Mom: How was dinner?
kid: The veggies were overcooked, all limp and kinda grey.
Mom: *sigh* Thanks for the input but what I was really asking was if I made you happy with the meal. I'm your mom, its my job to feed you and I want to know that I'm doing my job well. People need positive feedback so they feel good about trying their best.
kid: You did a good job mom. But the veggies were overcooked.
Mom: "It was good ,Mom. Thank you. Next time maybe cook the veggie a little less."
kids: *silence... slow lightbulb* Okay. Thanks Mom.

I have these types of conversations with my daughter all the time. I never get insulted when she says these types of things because I know exactly where they are coming from - I know her intentions. To me, intention is everything. Deciphering intention is how I operate with and around people in general. A persons intention is everything when deciding how to react. Yes, we all decide how we react. For NT's that can be a difficult concept to grasp because so much of their social programming and reactions are automatic - done without thought.

I also think NTs misread other NT's intentions all the time. That assumption that we know what someone else meant is just wrong sometimes. Yeah for the most part NTs get that when the host or hostess asks us "How was dinner?" they are more likely to be fishing for a compliment than wanting an honest appraisal of how well the dishes were prepared but I think it would be helpful if everyone took a little more time to try and understand one another's intentions. I think it would reduce not just AS/NT misunderstandings but a lot of conflict all the way around! I also think people should think about their intentions before they say something. If you are the one who just cooked the meal and you are not really interested in finding out if the vegetables were over cooked or not, perhaps you shouldn't ask "How was dinner?".

Interesting debate happening in here. I did respond but unfortunately, due to high volume, my reply disappeared before it was able to post. I should have copied/pasted .. grr Anyway, the gist of what I said was that I think I'll revisit the allowance. I used to give my 10 year old one and used it in a slightly different (teachable) way .. which worked GREAT until it FLOPPED. I'll try again. I've noticed the lying has decreased. I've just called him on it and put a quick end to the conversation. Redirection helps.

As for the following quote:

I'm not sure I agree with it. If we're asking "How was dinner?" then we are asking an open ended question. They should feel the right to express themselves truthfully and how they see it fit. If the veggies were overcooked, then saying so would be appropriate. I think NT's need to practice handling constructive criticism. I dont see what "feelings" have anything to do with dinner. This is my take on it:

Mom: How was dinner?
Kid: The veggies were overcooked, all limp and kinda grey.
Mom: Ya, I thought so too. I'll try and remember not to cook it as long next time. What did you like instead?
Kid: The chicken was good.
Mom: Yay chicken! (laughs)
Kid: (at the end of dinner) Thanks for the dinner, mom.
Mom: You're welcome. Your turn next time

We're not perfect either. If we model how we handle criticism, they'll likely do the same when the roles are reversed. Also, with the negative, they will learn to also point out the positive. Nothing wrong with that.

My example was just how that conversation might go in my house although t would be dad asking the question and mom translating the answer and providing the script. Originally DW_a_mom gave the example;



The use of the term 'mean' prompted my use of the emotional example. I definitely do not get emotional over this kind of question or answer... but my husband does. Unfortunately, I see both sides of that. He does expect the 'social lie' - he is fishing for a compliment, for an ego stroke. The last thing he wants to hear is a food critics opinion. Everyone has a different level of comfort with 'bluntness'. I think it is a good idea to plan for the worse. Someone who isn't so sensitve or who actually wants a critique can actually dig further for that answer if they truly want it. But, if you hurt feelings, it can't be taken back. It might be better to just assume EVERYONE is sensitive until you learn otherwise.

On a completely different note - I would LOVE if I could get my kid to sit down to dinner and eat ANYTHING we eat but especially meat! We are tearing our hair out trying to get protein into this kid!

Absolutely. People misread each other constantly. But I think there is an auto correct function in there. Most people will know when a situation has 'turned' - when moods change, when the conversation suddenly gets uncomfortable. Many times, an NT will know when they misstepped. Sometimes an insulted party will overcorrect their reaction and never let on how insulted they were. I think thats just as bad. It just results in more hurt feelings and resentment. The problems in AS are just compounded in these situations. There is so much subtext going on they may never understand. I know when I'm way out of my element. I will just literally ask what they are looking for from me. and that pisses people off further - because you 'should know.' That expectation of a basic grasp of social rules is the cause of so much misunderstanding. I don't have it. I have an intellectual grasp on many of its concepts but in face-to-face context I often get it very wrong. There are way too many variables in peoples reactions to learn EVERYTHING and very little room given for error.

I've had the 'intention' talk with my husband. He is of the mind that everyone needs to adapt to the norms of society. Society shouldn't need to change its thinking to accomodate the few who think differently. Needless to say, he and I are at a VERY major impass. I'm not asking for change - I would appreciate if others examined their intentions for a question or the intentions of anothers answer. But, people, in general don't do this. And asking them to do it can be seen as an affront. So, I totally agree with you but I do not think people are ready for that sort of shift in their thinking.

Ask your husband if society can ever be wrong in its beliefs, assumptions, thoughts, ideas, and values?

Ask your husband if society is the epitome of perfection then why isn't it open to challenge, debate, or discussion?

He openly admits and agrees to those things which is why I REALLY do not understand his stance on AS. Basically, he feels the world isn't fair and those with AS can't expect the world to change for them. Its complicated, it's ugly and I'm fairly certain it isn't going to end well. I simply cannot wrap my head around his point of view no matter how hard I try.

I actually agree with him that the world is not going to change for us, so when dealing with random strangers, we need to figure out how to adapt. I don't think that necessarily means reacting as a neurotypical would, but it may mean finding some other course besides our first impulses.

However, even if the world isn't fair, our loved ones should be fair. When dealing with loved ones, there needs to be compromise or at least understanding. And between parent and child, I think the reality is that the parent, being more emotionally mature, needs to do more of the adjusting.

Ask your husband these things.

1. Do the majority of people accept the way the world works?

2. If the answer is yes to 1 then couldn't it be possible that the world is the way it is because the majority accepts it as is and the majority feels hopeless to change it?

3. Ask him this as well. Couldn't it be possible that the majority accepting the way the world is and the hopelessness felt by the majority is the cause of why the world is the way it is?

4. Ask him is the majority happy with the way things are done? If yes, I ask why are they happy? If no, then I ask why don't they want to change it then if they are truly unhappy with present conditions?

We seem to have a chicken or the egg problem here.

Come to think of it he may agree with my logic but he may see the futility of it. One of my conclusions that I have come to is most people do not want to think. The parents who have remained on here more than likely does not mind doing some thinking.

#2 is very much in effect for him. His thinking is mainly NT but he does have some Aspie traits and to further stir that pot he is bi polar so the whole system is skewed in a rather irrational way. Especially where I'm involved. We do have a chicken and an egg problem but it's for a whole different reason.

I'm pretty sure you would get different answers of varying degrees no matter who you asked those questions. People may say they do like the way the world works but there always seems to be a 'BUT' tacked onto the end. Once you challenge people to think, they test the edges of their personal thinking and, in my experience, they step back from that edge back into their comfort zone. People are not, generally, comfortable with stepping out of the box. The box is safe. Personally, I deny the box existence. I'm uncomfortable every day of my life. If I can do it, so can other people.

I agree as well. I tend to see little tiny details but also the huge vast picture. Humans are the way they are because it works for them. That doesn't mean that our social rules are the most advantageous or beneficial. The human capacity for war and hate is testament to that. But science is also proving with increasing frequency that evolution can happen in fits and starts - entire traits can be changed in the course of a single generation. That is where my hope lies. I think people can change, not just for those on the spectrum but because open minded acceptance is in the best interest of the species as a whole. In the meantime - while that seeming impossiblity works its magic - we need to learn how to work with the rigid, fixed thinking of those around us. And I very much do believe that is the case even though those with AS are considered the 'fixed' thinkers. We need to learn to adapt and 'fit in', changing our entire mindset to make the majority more comfortable with what they see as uncomfortable differences. Stimming scares them so they seek to eliminate it rather than understand why it happens and the importance it has to those that do it. We do need to curb ourselves in order to make others more comfortable - but let's call that what it is. It is adaptive behavior for their comfort, not ours. Our comfort would include acceptance of who were are just the way we are - we wouldn't need to change who we are in order to be acceptable.

Honestly, I would like to hold my loved ones to a higher standard at home but, alas, they are also human. And adulthood does not instantly confer emotional maturity. So, I agree with you and try to live by that standard myself but it is not something I can not force on those around me or even really teach. It has to be learned individually by those who recognise the need in their life to do so.

I've never known my son to lie, although it may have happened at some point I guess. He's more inclined to misrepresent how well he understands certain things in order to "fit in" with society. I had issues with a teacher back when he was in 2nd grade. She believed that he was lying about needing to go to the toilet. She thought he was asking to go too often, and started refusing his requests to be excused. The first I knew about this was to have her storm up to me after school one afternoon and do the "Do you know what your son did today?! He wet his pants!" She then explained that he was asking to go to the toilet frequently. It took me a while to figure it out, but I finally got to the bottom of it. He was feeling very pressured in her class, and the toilet thing was real, but it was about anxiety levels rather than physiological. It was his body's way of getting him away from an unacceptable level of stress. I had to get the principal to intervene after observing her teaching style for myself for a few days. She was young and inexperienced and sometimes seemed to be intentionally cruel to the children in her class.

She actually was a very poor teacher, the worst one we encountered in the small catholic school my children attended. It was due to her neglect of my daughter on a school camp that I finally pulled my children out of that school and sent them to a state school. It was a brilliant decision as it turned out. From the first day in the state school, all of my children would come home excited and full of news about their day, which had been sadly lacking while in the catholic school. With class sizes of between 30 and 35 children in each class, my children spent a great deal of time just waiting for things to happen.