How do you get them to think?

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Eureka-C:

That is so awesome! Investor Parent is so much better. I tend to use "Helicopter Parent" kind of sardonically in an embrace the negative and re-appropriate it kind of way, because I did not know this other term. This is so much better and clearer. Thank you!

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We have a therapist that works one on one with our son. She comes to our home, the park, etc. She does a lot of what ASDMommyASDKid suggested in a variety of settings. She would even try to instigate some of these things to test him and help him react appropriately. She also uses key words that would not sound abnormal to other people rather than explaining the whole issue back. For example, he had a hard time if someone tried to mix other toys in with his Batman toys-- after she taught him once what to do, we would ONLY say "be flexible" to sort of trigger everything while he was in the moment (he loves words, for other kids I suppose it might be pictures). For some reason, using less words meant more... reliving every detail every time seemed to be the mistake we were making, especially in the moment. If he did not handle something appropriately, we would talk about it eventually or maybe not even talk about that incident in particular, but just reteach him the concept of "be flexible" in that setting.

For his anger issues, it also helped to make a thermometer (we carried this around everywhere and he has one taped to his desk at school). You can find one at the do2learn website. Go to social emotional skills and stress triggers or job tips-keeping a job-coping strategies. When his teacher could see him getting frustrated, she would ask where he was on the thermometer and what he should do about it. Also, we found that a lot of his stress was due to his inability to read how other people were feeling-- when we tried to correct his behavior, he would think we were extremely angry when we were only a little annoyed. We only figured this out because we would ask where he thought we were on the thermometer before we started correcting him, and he always thought we were at a 5 even if we approached him calmly without yelling. It turns out he had very little ability to distinguish the difference between a kind face or a mad face unless they were at extremes; he also has trouble with distinguishing tone of voice unless extreme. (Click on a word on the emotions color wheel on the do2learn website if you want to test for this or there is a demo version of Mind Reading online.) He is high functioning and very verbal so we were actually kind of shocked that he could not do this-- no wonder he was so anxious around people-- he had absolutely no way of predicting what to expect from them.

Of course, for your child it could be something completely different and that is what is so frustrating. We are still having issues but it helps me to know why he is having such problems because it becomes less frustrating for me and I am better able to help him. I don't think he will ever not have to deal with this-- he has Asperger's-- but hopefully we can give him the tools to help. It is really hard as a parent to accept the fact that you can't magically fix it with something that may seem completely logical to everyone else.

I think one of my biggest questions is how does this change over time-- do some things ever get completely fixed to the point that they don't trigger stress?

Holy crap!

You just describe my youngest son to a tee! From the fact that he displays what appear to be, according to the schools, far different behavior there than at home, right down to the specific details and examples you gave. Our son also participates in the same types of classes to help him learn the processing skills to deal with the same kinds of situations.

The biggest difference between your son and ours, is that our son has two older brothers, one eighteen months older and the other three years older, both also on the spectrum.

The good news is, both his older brothers used to display vastly different behaviors at school than at home, but they did eventually learn to develop them at home too. At least what we see in them at home now is far better than a few years ago.

They are 12, 14 and 15, by the way.

My wife and I were at the same stage with both of his brothers, just a few years ago, as you are with your son right now. They both grew out of it, so we are optimistic that our youngest will too, eventually. They are, all three, quite a bit different from each other in many ways, but quite similar so far in their patterns of growth. What we see that frustrates us right now with our youngest, we've already seen in both of his brothers, so we are, I think, better able to accept it as a longer phase than we'd like it to be, but a phase that hopefully will pass eventually with him also.

That phase though, didn't pass with his brothers, by itself. We did have to do many of the same things you're doing with your son. Practice, role playing, step by step "walking" them through the mental processes with them. All of that.

There is are a few concepts that took us a while to realize and try to instill in them. I'll try to pick my words very carefully here when explaining them, because some of this terminology can upset some Aspie's if it's taken out of context, and well, this forum is mostly populated with Aspie's, so this can be risky, but i don't know any other way to explain this.

Autism essentially means "Self-ism." That's not to say that Autistics are selfish, nor is it to say we are self centered necessarily. What I mean by that is that we tend to value things as they pertain to us directly. Kind of like whatever we do comes with the question, "What's in it for me? Now, I KNOW this is a sweeping generalization, and that there are many exceptions to this idea among Aspies. I do not mean for this as a "one size fits all" philosophy. It does though, fit our kids, and me, and seems to fit your son too.

If the shoe fits wear it?

Anyway, what we did with our two oldest, and what we do currently with all of them, is to approach any social difficulties with a "What's in it for you" result in mind.

In the beginning, we had to keep it very simple. Immediate, or at least fairly quick gratification was necessary. Even now, with our fifteen year old, talking about how what he does now will affect him when he's eighteen, never mind twenty or thirty, is like taking about living on some non-existant planet. It's not real to him. It's unattainable.

What we did was to try to remember things they did today (which was actually years ago now), and remind them later, each time a benefit or reward was gained for something they did yesterday, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, etc. That way, we hoped, and it eventually proved to be true, they would learn short term and long term patterns of behavior and reward. But, we had to focus on self gratifying rewards first. Later, we expanded on that concept to things they did that rewarded others, but eventually came back in slightly convoluted ways, to reward them too. Over time, they began to see the indirect ways in which positive behavior can come back on them in positive ways, even if it wasn't apparent from the beginning.

We went through years of wondering if they would ever get the connections. One really cool thing about Autism though, is that a lot of us can see obscure and abstract patterns many others don't see at all. For many of us, it's a strength. I can't tell you how many times our sons, even my youngest, has listened to social logics explained to them, reacted immediately with "That makes no sense at all!!", or "Heh?" then, a year or two or three later, pop out of their bedrooms to announce, "Hey Mom and Dad! Remember when you told me a long time ago, blah blah blah?" and we would answer, "No. I don't remember that at all." and they would then proceed to remind us of the details, we'd remember, then they would explain it all in perfect logic based on some experience that had just happened that had proved it for them.

All three of our sons have been doing this for years now. It's like they all will be stuck for a while at one social age, then out of the blue, one of them will make a giant leap unexpectedly.

I cannot promise you your son will be the same, but he is so much like my youngest, I can't help but hope and believe there may be a strong possibility he might to the same thing over time.

Now, that's the good news.

The bad news is, you son is only six. You may have years of frustration ahead of you, unless you can learn to "let go" to some extent and just accept that he might be this way for a while. That doesn't mean accept and give up though. It means, accept that you may have a long hard road ahead of you, that you're going to have to work very hard to get down, but do NOT give up. Keep doing what you have been doing. Add to that some teaching about short term and long term gratification.

I would not try too hard to teach the concept of giving with no return at all. Not yet. My two oldest are barely beginning to get that concept.

One other thing. There is something about the structure of the social learning classes, and the practice/role playing thing. My kids all did the same thing (youngest still does). They get it while "playing the game," but once the game has ended, it's all out the window. It's like it only matters when somebody says, "Okay, it's time to play." The rules don't seem to count once they sense the game is over.

The only thing I can say about that is to keep repeating that though this is a game while we're doing it together, these are rules you should learn to follow ALL the time. It took years, but my two oldest did eventually get that, and I hope my twelve year old will to. Just keep telling him.

In the meantime, develop a world of patience. You're going to need it.

That's all I've got right now.

Good luck.

EDIT: I did forget to add one thing. I know this may seem obvious, but a lot of the difference between how my sons act in school, and how they act at home is nothing more than sibling rivalry. That can be a heck of a lot worse with AS in mix, but it's not that uncommon for children's behavior to differ at home. Heck, even my behavior is often different at home than at work.

The therapy, swimming, karate....is not overkill. In my opinion the more different types of therapy the better. He does need to learn calming techniques though for times when he cant "stop". My oldest who was Bi Polar had no impulse control and I had to help him slow down sometimes.....even physically and he started asking me to hold him when he would get out of control. He started to realize when he needed help. I personally think ADHD or ADD is a part of Autism but other people say its a co morbid condition. Most people in my family who have Autism/Aspergers have ADHD or ADD issues as well. My niece was diagnosed ADHD because it is more socially acceptable but I and many others in the family know she is a highly intelligent little Aspie. Most of the hyperactive behavior is a sign that they are sensory seeking. Even though you think his therapy is overkill obviously he needs more....do you have any room to build a sensory room in your house or does he have a trampoline?

Question:

What do parents mean when they say their kid knows better?

Mom has said this about me growing up. I know know better means you know not to do it and you understand it. But when I was seven, I came home screaming and one day mom talked to me about it and I said "Sorry mom, I forgot, that's school behavior, I'm at home now so now I have to do home behavior." That confused my mother because it made her wonder what was going on so she called my teacher and told her about it and she said that she has a student that screams and mom told her I am learning that is okay to do and am doing it. Mom said I knew better. Okay if I knew better, then why did I believe it was okay to do just because he was doing it, I thought it was school behavior and it was okay to act that way in school. So would that mean I didn't know any better? After that mom just wanted to pull me out of that classroom where I was learning inappropriate behavior because I didn't understand special needs and how rules may be different for a child due to their disability. So it wasn't like I was making fun of them, I truly thought that was how I was to behave at school. So it was like I had two different personalities and it sounds common for autistic kids to have split personalities like they will act different in school than they do at home. Some parents think their kids are choosing to behave certain ways because they function better in school or because they function better at home so they see it in black and white. So maybe that is where the "They know better" comes in? Because they don't understand so they assume their kid knows better?

A parent (or a teacher) tends to say, "He/She knows better," to mean this is something I thought I explained (usually more than once) and I thought he/she understood this because I quizzed him/her and he/she repeated the words back to me. Then the parent or teacher gets upset because the child repeatedly does/doesn't do what was expected.

Often what happens is that the child can repeat the thing back but doesn't really understand it. Alternately, they understand it, but they can't help not complying because they can't apply it.

For example, my son likes to get too close to the TV. We have told him numerous times that it is a safety issue, it is bad for his eyes, and not to do this. If I were to ask him if he should be that close to the TV, he would tell me that he should not do this. To an NT parent or teacher this appears as though he knows he should not do this, and is purposefully not complying.

In reality, he is parroting back what we want him to, but when he is excited about a cat (or something) on TV, he is excited and it does not even occur to him to control it. It is like a moth to a flame. Sometimes my husband, who is substantially more NT than I, will tell our son he should know better. That's like telling a moth it should know better than to get close to the flame.

It is aggravating to the parent or teacher but it takes much more work than telling the child or punishing the child repeatedly, because the child has to be able to pause and think about it.

I don't think acting before thinking is just an ASD thing. As a teacher of fourth graders, I see them do stupid things all the time, or not think before they react. Sometimes they still do things on purpose, just to get a rise out of their friend, even when they know they are doing wrong.

Especially amongst siblings, I think it's more common to fight more, mess with each other more, etc. and to not have as much empathy. My brother used to LOVE to mess with me, like come and sit on me and fart on me when we were kids. I'd get so mad at him, and I'd tackle him and we'd end up in a huge wrestling match. By the end we were laughing. Anyways, point is, I think many kids, ASD or otherwise, "know" what they are "supposed" to do, but don't always do it.

I think as maturity sets in and he gets a little older, he will get better with his interactions as long as you keep helping him and reminding him of what to do. It gets very old to constantly have to repeat yourself, but that's part of teaching anything, I think.

I can't tell you how many conversations, especially with my boys at school, about keeping their hands and feet to themselves, or how to give something back to someone, or to apologize, etc. It's part of raising and teaching kids, I think.

A lot of children can give the appearance of understanding something while not understanding anything and not knowing that they don't understand and not knowing that there is something to be understood in the first place and not being able to communicate to anyone that they don't understand even if they know the preceding things. A lot of autistic children act according to associations between whatever they were told to say or do when something happens, all without having any clue why they're doing what they were told to say or do, so they cannot remember to do the unnatural behaviors, even though they have been taught many times.

Also, we assume that kids know things, but they really don't. I will assume that my students understand all the words I am saying while I am teaching, but I'm amazed constantly by the words they really don't know or understand....words that are fairly simple, like "gather" or "village." Because they are older, I think they know that stuff already, but they don't.

Many things in life must be taught, retaught and constantly spiraled back in. we use that term a lot in education: spiraling. Social skills are something that for most children have to be taught and retaught and retaught again later.

The first few weeks of having a new class, we spend a lot of our time on routines and procuedures. After a break, like at Thanksgiving, I have to reteach and remind my students of those routines. I have to do it again after Christmas, and again after Spring Break......things that I taught them back in August!!

I've taught the same group for two years now. My group consists of English Learners and Native English speakers, some that have learning disabilities, some that are ASD and some that are highly gifted. They ALL have to be retaught things fairly regularly.

I say just keep plugging away with your little man. It does sound like his impulse control maybe something else like possible ADHD. I agree that ASD often has the other D's involved. Many times, kids with GT, ASD, OCD, ADHD, ODD, etc. tend to cross lines a lot. So that could definitely be a contributing factor.

I know it gets old. I often feel like a broken record.

Oh, yeah, and kids definitely let it all go when they get home. I take it as a backhanded compliment. They know they can unload their junk on you and you'll still love them. Many of my students' parents tell me they can't believe their child is so well behaved at school because they are little helions when they get home. Many of these kids are highly intelligent and on those "D" spectrums. Hang in there!! You are a GREAT mom!

The reason why I think my son knows better is becuase he can pinpoint the negativeb ehaviors in someone else or when a wrong doing is done to him. For example, if someone hits him, or if he observes a child hitting someone else, he will go to the offending child and tell them hitting isnt nice, and that they should use theri words or go find an adult. So, to me, he knows better. Maybe I am wrong and I am misinterperting it? But he can accurately pinpoint wrong behavior or even errors or mistakes in everyone else, but himslef. Even if it is an accident, if someone bumps into another child, he will get upset for that child and tell the offending child what he did wrong and how he could do it better. Again, he has the knowledge in his head, he just doesnt use it when HE is acting out. I would love to figure a way to get him to use what he knows. If he had no idea, if I said to him, "What else could you do instead of hitting," and he never could come up with an answer, I would understand more, casue he would not know what to do. But this kid gives such brilliant solutions,that I have been told more times then Id like to admit, that his answers are light years ahead of his peers. The furstrating part is that he isnt able to use ANY of them when he needs to.

Also, when my son is with typical developing peers, he sticks out like a sore thumb. NONE of the 6yos are biting, very few are hitting, and none are screaming in anothers face literally nose to nose,, and none relentlessly tickle another kid while they are hysterically crying, etc..in fact, his typical peers all look at him like he is strange when he does those things. So, I understand all kids need to be told over and over, but certain things they dont. Like personal space. NONE of my sons typical peers are space invaders, I just dont see them doing ANY of the stuff he does.


I dont assume my son knows, he will tell me immidately after he has offended what went wrong and how it sould have been handled different. I KNOW he knows, he knows he knows (lots of knows...lol). It is a matter of tapping into it at the right time. A second after he knocks a kid becasue that kid broke a rule my son has, is too late. A second after he bites his freind for touching his piano, is too late. Those kids dont care that he said sorry casue he does it over and over and over and over...

Another thing, my son presses buttons and pulls levers. He has already evacuated a school by pulling the fire alarm, made the childrens dept of our library go offline for an hour, and shut down a cash registerin a store by pressing buttons. He knows he shouldnt casue we go over it and he can elaborately tell you waht to and not do...but again, he still presses them if he is close enough. And he finds them even if they are hidden!

Anyhow, thanks fot the advice and imput, it is all good food for thought!

Have you asked your son why he doesn't do what he knows and why doesn't he follow his own advice?

To me it's obvious why he can state the rules but not apply them: there's a lot more to process in an actual social situation than when just sitting and talking about socialising.
Imagine multiplying a 3-digit number and a 1-digit number in your head. It's quite doable, right?
Now imagine doing the same thing with someone crashing cymbals next to your ear, another person poking you with a stick, and trying to hold a conversation.
It's a matter of being overwhelmed, not of not thinking.