HELP! @ school: comments from boys to 8yo ASC daughter

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Well as a man and former boy I don't think you can gloss over an entire gender like that.

However I do understand your concern. I think instead of that you should just be blunt with her, like telling her if they start touching/doing anything she feels uncomfortable with to run/tell teacher or something like that.

I think matter-of-fact protocols are an important part of the rules you give your daughter.

I know ASD kids like to ask questions and understand everything, but this is one area where you can probably just hint gently at what the "danger" is and simply stayed focused on rules and protocol instead. Kids can really freak out if you tell them what you are worried about, and I never found a need to with my daughter. I gave her rules and protocols and she knew when to run and when to tell me about things that had happened.

I personally have preferred to keep judgment of the boys out of it; not all kids that do bad things have bad intentions, but the effect is the same, and I don't want our girls to be confused thinking things like, "but he's a good boy, he wouldn't do anything he shouldn't." You have to take "good" and "bad" out of it if you truly want a child that stays safe and out of risky situations. The types of words I've used with my daughter are along the lines of that boys have curiosity and urges that are different from girls, and that may not be safe for girls. Following certain rules and protocols keeps boys and girls interacting in a safe and appropriate way.

Slightly off topic, but I am not sure that is true. It manifests differently due to a variety of factors, but I would not say the source is so different.

Ugh, yes! It really bugs me when I'm volunteering with kids and all the other aides are yammering to each other while I'm the only one dealing with the kids.



I certainly wouldn't consider forcing a girl to remove her underwear and trying to have sex with her an appropriate sexual game, but it's still likely they didn't fully understand what they were doing. Most of the time, when you find a kid engaging in sexually aggressive behavior at that young an age, they were a victim of child sexual abuse themselves. The two kids who sexually abused me had both been victims as well (and the younger of them may have started abusing me when he was 11, but I'm not sure). Their father liked to 'corrupt' people (eg he would try to get people hooked on drugs, even when it served no benefit to him), so we suspect he may have deliberately tried to teach them to be abusers.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether a child understood the implications of what they were doing or not, if they are sexually assaulting someone, the victim has the same end result.

I'm struggling with this thread because I see two very different things and I'm not sure how to reconcile them.

On one hand, I see a very protective parent, perhaps to the point of helicopter parenting. And I work around people who are the products of helicopter parents. Totally incapable of standing on their own. And that worries me.

On the other hand, I see your daughter is very socially naive for her age and a higher degree of protection is required until she catches up.

I remember when I was in kindergarten, I had a girl I "liked" in so much as you have kindergarten crushes. Perfectly innocent, cute flirty behavior. Certainly nothing to get the school involved in, and I think rightfully so. You don't want to show young kids that positive emotions like liking someone, when done respectfully, result in punishment.

I agree a blanket warning that boys are dangerous could have negative effects. Have you had the "good touch, bad touch" discussion with her? That might be a much more appropriate way to approach the situation. Then, specific actions, not an entire gender, are identified as wrong.

You could also make sure she understands that she's not allowed to leave the recess monitor's site when out for recess.

Have you considered enrolling her in a self defense class? It's a very useful skill to have for a woman in today's world.

I just think you should approach the situation with tact and care. The boys may have innocent intentions and just may not understand she is 8, but has the mind of a 4 year old. They certainly shouldn't be singled out or punished if that's the case.

Protect your daughter, but don't scorch the earth around her.

I see what you are getting at but I don't think it's a very good idea to put the idea into a little kid's head that all males are sexual predators. Won't that affect her ability to form healthy relationships in the future?

I guess my phrasing needs tweaking because I surely don't intend for it to sound like all males are sexual predators! Life is just different when you are a girl v. a boy and the main message I've given my daughter, I think (I hope!) is that there is a time and a place for building relationships with boys that follows both people having maintained a certain amount of maturity, information, and just place in life. I have had to tell her that girls can also be targets (she is 12, and those kidnap cases in the recent news, found after a decade, freaked me out), but that is more so that she understands why I have certain rules, like not letting her walk places alone. But, yeah, it is a fine line, and I've been surprised at the stupid things my son and his friends would do when they were young; so clueless.

And there is one difference: a predator knows exactly what he is doing. Young boys I don't think always do. They just react. The word predator doesn't apply, and I do think looking back at the things I had to tell my daughter that I kept that line clear. She isn't afraid of boys in the slightest, but she does follow my rules.

@thewhitrbbit: What you have said is kind of contradictory really, you class my parenting as "helicopter" parenting (without knowing anything about me) but acknowledge her vulnerability. Because she is vulnerable she needs even more caution than an ordinary child. I don't call that "helicopter" parenting, I call it being a decent parent. I am the only person in this thread that knows my daughter, so I think I am therefore most likely to know what her needs are. Yes of course I have had that conversation with her about which parts of her are off-limits for someone to touch. But do you know what she said to me "What if it was an accident?" So if a boy/other child touched her and lied and said they didn't mean to, she would believe them. Especially if it was someone she played with. And yes, she does play with boys, so if I really was a "helicopter" parent I would have banned her from playing with boys whatsoever don't you think? I said "boys can be dangerous" which is different to "boys are dangerous", and it's the truth, boys can be dangerous - and that's not a sweeping statement either, it's a fact of life, pay close attention to the wording. She would not go to self-defence classes as she doesn't like things like that, and the fact that she has balance problems means she would get very upset and give up as I've tried physical types of class with her before. It doesn't matter what the intentions of the boys are if they do something inappropriate though does it.

@Wreck-gar: As I said to thewhitrbbit, I did not say all boys are sexual predators. I didn't even specify sexual predation.

@DW_a_mom: Did you check out those links I put about primary age boys committing sexual offences? If you look a few posts back you will find them. I don't think you can say boys cannot be predators, a 10 year old and 11 year old deliberately led an 8 year old little girl out of site of adults and attempted to rape her. That is predation.

There's a lot of reactions to the discussion coming up that seem to be based on the assumption that "kids don't know what they're doing" or rooted more I think in the sure and certain knowledge that "my kids wouldn't do that".

My 6 year old daughter is clever and manipulative if the ways she attempts to play me are any indication, and in truth that's partly my fault as my AS son gets more of my attention but anyone who doubts what kids are capable of, should google Jamie Bulger and read about the two boys who singled him out, removed him, and then tortured and killed him.

And speaking as a parent, this is OUR fault. Kids are not taught right from wrong, we rely too much on TV and video games to entertain them, we blame their teachers for giving them bad grades and we do not teach them discipline or punish them properly or consistently. We assume that someone else is at fault or responsible because we are too busy or lazy to do our jobs properly.

Regardless of whether the actions described in the OP are due to ignorance of what is appropriate OR predation, RISK EXISTS. Being a parent is a RESPONSIBILTY and the parents of these boys are potentially failing in theirs, while the OP attempts to shoulder hers.

It's a perfectly reasonable reaction to a perfectly reasonable fear, which some people are refusing to accept or understand, ffs! There's none so blind as those who won't see!

I come from a Jewish background. During the time that my parents when they were children and lived in the Bronx it was a community and everyone knew each other. News in the Bronx spread faster than the news on the internet. If a child or children looked like they were doing something once one person knew the whole community knew and it spread fast to the parents. It was efficient and it worked.

IMHO, lack of parental responsibility is part of the bigger problem. I believe our problems are systemic and ontological . In the bulger case, what if the bystanders were like the community in the Bronx. What if the bystanders probed further and really got involved? I think we would've had a life saved. More than likely the 10 year olds would've been punished. More than likely, the people in this area did not know each other even though they lived next door. If they did, they would've instantly saw something was wrong and wondered why this 2 year old was with these two 10 year old boys. What were they up to?

We need the community back in my opinion. I think there is to much emphasis on the individual and there is a fanatical belief in the internal locus of control. A parent can't watch their child 24/7. The aides at whirlingmind's daughter's school should be doing their jobs. If others see inappropriate things going on as well they need to step in and put a stop to it or alert those who are able to put a stop to it.

Whirlingmind you are so right to be concerned especially in today's day and age especially when society's problems are ontological.

@ torquemada and cubedemon6073: Thanks for the support guys. This isn't about me tarnishing all boys/males with a brush, it would be the same truth if I said "women can be dangerous" (e.g. Rosemary West or Myra Hindley) or a knife can be dangerous - it can, but it isn't in the right hands and used correctly. A boy can be dangerous to a girl, that doesn't mean he will be. And in this case particularly, they are older boys too. No-one can say what they are exposed to outside of school. Whether that be a dad or older brother's porn, violent or pornographic websites or games, older or more streetwise friends egging them on, an abusive home, all sorts.

The Bulger case still sends shivers down my spine. And I'm sure people would have made excuses for the boys at the time, but later on after being given new identities and released, one of them was re-imprisoned after being found to be accessing child pornography. If you look back at all criminals, they usually have a life of relevant incidents from a very young age.

People are so busy either defending due to the age of the children in question, accusing me of saying all boys are sexual predators or of being a "helicopter" parent. And that is not what any of this is about. I think I've given more than enough reason with those links and what I have said to see that I do have a very valid concern.

The school can't say that these boys are safe, even though they are under their supervision (and this is questionable from school to school, I mean if schools were 100% failsafe how would children get bullied or pervert teachers molest pupils or gunmen get in?) they aren't in their minds. So you're right, I do need strong reassurances and evidence from the school that they are doing their job properly.

And I agree with everything you said about community and societal values too. The only protection my daughter has is me. The buck stops with me. I put her in that school. So I am the one that needs to ensure the school takes their role as seriously as I do.

I have a meeting with the teacher, the SENCo and the SEN SW at the end of this week anyway, so I will raise this issue then and the SENCo has already emailed me that she will raise it too (annoyingly she only works part-time).

If you read my introduction, I said I was struggling with how I felt on this topic, and I actually acknowledged that she needs additional protection.

Whirlingmind, you are so right about the knife. I have cut my finger with a knife before while trying to break down boxes. This was because I let myself drift off while trying to break down a box. I can tell you it is no fun to be cut. It hurts like crap. I can easily accidently slit my wrists if I am not careful.

Fire can be an excellent tool or it can be man's worst enemy.

Whirlingmind, if you do not mind may I PM you?

One aspect that hasn't been discussed here which was a problem that we had is your daughter's ability to ask for help and the response she is likely to get from an adult if she does ask. Many kids on the spectrum just don't remember to consider that one solution to a problem may be to ask an adult for help. My son was being bullied by two NT girls who were in the same grade as he was. It was happening right out in the open on the playground in front of the adults who were supposed to be supervising the children. The problem, other than the fact that these two little girls are nasty little brats, is that DS did not know the playground duties so was reluctant to approach them and ask for help. In addition, if he did ask for help, the initial response was for the adult to brush him off. The second part is what really pissed me off (again besides the fact that these two little girls were getting away with torturing my son)! Adults in this situation too often just blow-off kids' concerns. I guess they think the kids are just being tattle-tales. While that may be true some of the time, it sets a bad precedent whereby kids don't think that telling an adult is going to get them any help even when they REALLY need an adult's help solving a problem. So, we did 2 things. Every recess for a few weeks, DS's aide made sure he was introduced to the adults supervising the playground so he would know their names and those adults were instructed that if he came to them with a problem, that they would help him and not just blow him off. Getting him to ask for help is a challenge we still struggle with in various arenas but it is getting better.

You sound as clumsy as me! I look like a self-harmer from all the injuries I have! Yes, you may PM me, I don't mind at all.

Last edited by whirlingmind on 03 Jul 2013, 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.