HFA in Boy's Club

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See here is the problem. In another post you say that you look at it as either he cannot help it like hair color or he is trying to get "something good" for himself at other's expense. By couching it in these terms you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to make him not autistic so you can justify treating him as a boy who is being manipulative to "get something good for himself." He is not getting something good for himself. He is alienating everyone because he is in the weeds.

It has nothing to do with being on a bandwagon. By saying that you are basically claiming the boy has a fad diagnosis or that it is being expanded to include people who are not ASD for trendy reasons,and that is why he has the diagnosis. If you think this diagnosis is some, special trendy way to "get something good for yourself" then I am not going to be able to convince you of much of anything. These kids have a real rough time and if you can't see that, then I just don't know.

As far as it meaning you have to like his behavior --it does not mean that at all. Sometimes strategies for NT kids work for kids on the spectrum and sometimes they don't. You don't have to deny the child his diagnosis to try NT strategies. It is just that they may not work in the same way, there is more trial and error involved, and NT strategies may backfire completely.

I do think it is a problem if everyone around him is assuming the worst all the time. That is likely to have long term consequences, and I feel sorry for the child.

I think this is spot on. Autism is all about focusing on specific activities. Once the boy sees others doing something that is fun, sometimes they'll "latch on" on those particular activities, and replicate them on other people. Also take into account that autistic children usually lack strong sense of self: they see themselves in 3rd person, as just one more person out there. So, it's a matter of fairness. Meaning, if other boys have done it before, had fun, and were not punished, then it must be OK. So, when adults bring this issue upon autistic children, they may be puzzled, like: "why were the other boys OK to do it, but not me?" So, to address the issue, one should go to the source of the problem (what other boys have done it? Or, where did you get that from? It could come from outside the camp...) or have a group talk where the problem is addressed to everyone.

Last edited by eikonabridge on 05 Jan 2018, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

ASDMommyASDkid, I would be very interested to hear more about your scaffolding strategies, I still feel so new to this and my opinions on the best way forward have shifted so many times already. I have a few specific things that keep flaring up which I would really like some perspectives on. Will start a new thread at some point though and not hog yours TwoBlocked. Thanks.

As with all anxiety issues, our society does a very poor job. We tend to want to solve it at, the moment of anxiety. That's precisely the wrong moment. Autism is all about focusing on certain events. If we only focus on solving anxiety at the moment of anxiety, that won't do any good: it only reinforces the feedback loop.

It's much more productive to just have a record of those episodes (I find voice recorder to be the best), and link them to positive, happy moments in life. You solve the problem at the moments least related to anxiety moments. Then you link the positive moments back next time anxiety attacks. That's all. As I always say: "Sometimes life is tough. Sometimes life is fun." Space-time wormhole tunnel. That's the right way of dealing with autism issues.

Last edited by eikonabridge on 05 Jan 2018, 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Google for "autism and transition." The technical term is "transition." (Though it has other meanings as well.)

E.g. https://www.iidc.indiana.edu/pages/transition-time-helping-individuals-on-the-autism-spectrum-move-successfully-from-one-activity-to-another

Feel free to PM me if you want to. If you tell me the specific issues, I would be happy to see if I can help you brainstorm some ideas..

Close. I kinda feel like the only stumbling block is dealing with his diagnoses. It makes me unsure what to do. The reason I am here is to see what I might best do especially when his gang is not functioning, in particular dealing with his misbehavior. You brought up something that may help - a lot!

First, as far as accommodations, the boys constantly make them for each other with little more than pointing out that someone doesn't run as fast, for example.

But then you ask a great question: "Does he have any special interests? Any particular fascinations?" Not anything obvious, but he is constantly trying to be clever, which usually turns out sounding foolish. That is something to work with. He is smart, but not wise. Like being smart is knowing tomatoes are fruit. Being wise is knowing you don't put them in a fruit salad. Hal would purposely put them in a fruit salad to irritate people and then claim immunity because tomatoes are fruit. Or Hal would plot on throwing a snowball in each boy's face when they weren't expecting it. Why? To feel clever, which is a good feeling, but taking advantage of others to feel that way is the wrong way to go about it!

OK, I can work with his gang to inspire, challenge, and encourage them in activities that require some real cleverness, the kind Hal may be able to provide. He does want to be valued. They are determined to go on a "Survival Campout" this Summer. Taking no food and only a tarp and sleeping bags and fishing poles for an overnighter is usually way beyond this age group. An older group did it last Summer and these fantastic guys are reaching for the stars. So... There are many things that an ingenious boy could be needed and valued for in planing and participating in a Survival Campout. Same with everyday activities, too...

Thanks a ton!! !

I can see that as a possibility, but don't think so in this case. I have decided he is just trying to feel clever (tricky) but doing it in the wrong way. I am going to pursue ways to provide him with positive opportunities to feel clever within the gang. See my next earliest post.

That made me explode.
No! He really thinks these ways! This is a very, very, very aspie behavior!
When you think and say what I highlighted, you do exactly this: assume the worst intentions.

But the idea to give him opportunities to be clever the ways benefitting the whole group is indeed brilliant.

TwoBlocked: you really ought to listen. This is a forum where autistic people gather. We know what we are talking about. Please refrain from using terms such as "to be clever" or "manipulative" when referring to autistic people. Those concepts are so far removed from autistic people's minds. You are viewing things from your own perspective, and introducing a bias that has nothing to do with reality. The evil is in your own mind.

"To be clever" and "manipulative" is usually how we autistic people view and describe the neurotypical people.

Also, you really need to focus on the "special interests" and "fascinations" of these children. Those are the main characteristic of autism. (I personally would trash all the social diagnosis criteria.) If a child doesn't exhibit peculiarly focused attention (positive, like interests, or negative, like sensory issues, irritability), then it won't qualify as autism.

Last edited by eikonabridge on 05 Jan 2018, 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Why do you feel the need to append the word "tricky" to the word "clever?" You are trying to give the actions a negative connotation with this use of language.Why not just say he wants the other boys to think of him as smart?

You are correct in thinking it may be a positive motivator to put his intelligence to constructive use, but every time you choose to (or subconsciously) frame it in a negative light, you are turning what I presume is supposed to be a collaborative effort into one of antagonists. I can't imagine anything good coming from that, and it is completely unnecessary.

^^^This

Thanks ASDMommyASDKid, that is really kind, I will take you up on your offer! Just bear with me, I have overdosed on online time this week!

TwoBlocked, I do understand you as genuinely coming from a place where you want to elevate your camp member's behaviour and look to hold him accountable and teach him valuable life lessons. I recognise a lot of your thinking in how my husband thinks and it has been interesting following this thread as I have seen clearly in black and white how difficult it can be for two people with different views to parent an autistic child. So thank you for that.

However, I do agree with the sentiment others have expressed that you keep portraying fairly fixed behavioural patterns as more flexible than they likely are and confused acts as intentionally malicious. This is why I asked the first question of whether you just wanted the behaviour to go away, and for it to be less disruptive to the group dynamic, or whether you actually wanted to go deeper into trying to build this boy's confidence as an autistic child.

Either way, if you feel comfortable with all-group solutions I would definitely give that a go. One other thought is that you might want to look at "executive functioning skills" I recently read a brilliant book by a Danish researcher breaking down executive functioning skills into training and it could appeal to the all-camp strategy of building executive functioning for all the kids but in particular benefiting this particular boy.

Sorry, no. I have known Hal, that I like very much, for about a year. He does have malicious intent on occasion like many other kids. If that is not an "aspie" trait, then you would not consider him an "aspie." Where then would your criticism be of me? You can't have it both ways.

My mother knew me all my life and she never got it.

Just stop being so sure about it, that's all I'm asking for.

Last edited by magz on 05 Jan 2018, 12:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Yes, I understand your point. And as I mentioned in my last point, that brings up the question of whether Hal is the kind of autistic person you presume him to be. Since he seems not to be, perhaps your advice is not pertinent. Perhaps you are projecting what I am saying about Hal, who I like very much, onto yourself.