just when i think....

Page 4 of 8 [ 125 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

Joined: 7 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 119
Location: Michigan, USA

10 Mar 2011, 12:51 am

I'm so glad you finally got a good day:)

I was reading one of the posts dont remember who's that mentioned nothing positive ever being said and have to comment that altho i am able now to speak about so many positive things with respect to both my kids... I do remember back to a time when my son was much like the one discribed here and in the face of an unending storm it was very difficult to think of anything positive to say.... I remember sitting in the sped preschool IEP meeting and them asking for the positive and it taking me more than 15 minutes to come up with "he is animated" that was the only thing i could come up with...it doesn't mean you dont love your child it just means your overwhelmed with the situation and like it or not somtimes the bad things are easier to remember when your in the middle of the storm.

Lets all try to remember back to when our kids NT or ASD were very small like this ... we had an unending attack coming at us from all angles.. we had our parents and family and strangers and friends telling us we were doing it all wrong... we had schools refusing to help us or doctors acting like we were crazy to think our child eating a blanket was not normal.. and all the while we had this child who was struggling so much and we felt powerless to help them and the more we tried to help the more issues arose and the more stressful the situation and in the meantime we weren't getting enough sleep and some of us were not getting a lot of support from our spouses or our families ... I just think it's easy for us to sit on the outside of the situation where our kids have improved or our family have accepted and begun to help us and things have found a sort of normalcy level and pass judgment but if we are really honest with ourselves and remember back to the beginning it's not so hard to empathize with how this woman is feeling right now.

She has very little positive to say because she is mentally and physically exhausted because she feels she has tried everything and nothing is working, because in the face of all that she is having to do on a daily basis she is watching her other children being hurt and it breaks her heart.. but if she didn't love this step son she wouldn't have bothered to ask for help:) just my opinion

That said there are so many things that can be improved in this particular situation or changed that would make a huge difference for this child and for everyone in this home but attacking a person who already feels terrible or they wouldn't ask for help is counter productive.

and it is true that probably she is needing different advice on things that might help the situation , things she can try ect. but honestly I have had this life she mentions and what I needed was someone to say you are a good mom in a difficult situation so lets find some constructive ways to make it better.

liloleme
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jun 2008
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,762
Location: France

10 Mar 2011, 6:32 am

If you go back to this post http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3282815 ... t=#3282815 that was posted already you will see that I tried very hard to offer help to you and you ignored me and the other people that tried to help. If you think I dont understand try reading my posts that I put up for you explaining the things that I went through with my son. Im sorry if I came off as abrasive but your son is going to end up like mine if you dont do something. Ive walked down that road....actually mine could actually have been more rocky as it seems you have a supportive husband. I am not perfect...far from it! The thing that makes me angry is you have not only a diagnosis for this child but you have help and people who are willing to help you but you ignore this and just continue to put up angry posts about this very young child. Thankfully my son is trying to put his life together but he is still impulsive, and obsessive and he is nearly 24.
I know how you feel (frustrated and angry) however I dont condone your attitude that you express here. Just wanted to let you know that I did try to help you. My son at five lit the house on fire in the middle of the night...and not just on one occasion. He would also go out the windows (we finally had to nail them shut) and turn on the neighbors water and flood their yard. These were obsessions for him but at the time I though I must be the worst Mom on the planet because I had no control....I didnt know, I didnt know what Aspergers or Bi Polar disorder was....I was just told I was a bad Mom, I spoiled him! You know, you are aware of the problem....Please use the information available to help you and your child!

Just wanted to add one more thing. My younger children both have Autism and parenting them is so different....no they are not perfect either...the difference is, is that I am informed and I know WHY they do the things they do and I know how to deal with it. I understand that your other children have ASD and you say you deal with them alright. So maybe this child has other problems and needs to be dealt with differently. You have no idea how much I wish I could turn back time....my baby has Hepatitis C from sticking dirty needles in his arms....Do you know what that feels like???? Im just so sad for this little boy because he sounds so much like my son...this is why I wanted to help but you are so angry and so sure that you know what to do, but if that was true you would be having so many problems. Im sorry but this just hurts me and Im sorry Im taking it personally but like I said, your son mirrors mine and I just cant help it!
Im a hysterical shaking mess now...Im just so sorry...Im so sorry

ediself
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Oct 2010
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,202
Location: behind you!!!

10 Mar 2011, 6:59 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

Everyone, I realize a certain picture emerges in this thread, but please remember that there are other threads and other parts to the story. I think people (including me) need to have a stronger feel for the whole history to figure out how to help this family.

Let's remember: telling a mom she's totally wrong does not help a family.

This is what I have been trying to keep in mind while ignoring this thread. I have a step father. I HAD a step father, now he's just the random psycho my mother married. But the main thing is, for this particular step mother, she does not want to help the child. She wants her old life back , the one with nice children and no special needs involved. I can understand that. But I just wish she could have enough theory of mind and empathy to realise that a 5 year old with an asd is likely to be at the emotional level of her baby. He may speak and appear difficult, but he's just a tiny little boy who feels unloved. He will react strongly to it, there's no way around it, I don't think you can really even "break" an ASD kid with abuse, if that's what you're trying to achieve.
My step father once took our doors out. We had no doors on our bedroom frames, and he locked HIS bedroom door so we couldn't get in. What happened is, one day i took a mace to it, and tore it to pieces. I was 15. You still have a long way to go before he realises he's strong enough to retaliate.
Locking the bathroom door at night ,for a child with a small bladder and no diapers, is abuse.
Barging into his bedroom without knocking, with the sense of entitlement that "it's my house" implies, is abuse. In what way? Well, what can he do, go out and get a job and get his own house so he can have privacy? No. This is also HIS house, and HIS bedrooom. I could only understand your attitude if he was 19, not going to college and not paying rent to you.
The way you speak about him is despicable. He is not a 20 year old man out to drive you insane. He is a small little boy. Innocent. Probably feeling like you hate him right now, and you'd better do something about it or leave his father .
I have no patience with psycho-rigid personalities in general, but i am familiar with your kind to the point that i feel like shaking some sense into you right now. I know it is useless. You will be "right" whatever I say. Let's hope this kid teaches you the lesson himself when he's older.

_________________
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/autism ... cs-france/

missykrissy
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 319

10 Mar 2011, 10:09 am

ediself wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

yes it would be much better to let him bathe in the toilet, burn himself with hot water and flood the floor than to lock the door, poor shampoo all over the floor, plug the toilet, ect....... good thinking. it's not like he can't use the bathroom if he wakes up and needs to go. even if the bathroom is unlocked he doesn't get up to use it. he sits in his bed and screams bloody murder until someone goes to get him and bring him to the toilet as he always has. the only time he gets up to go in there is when he wants to play in there. as for privacy, like you said, he's 5. he doesn't need privacy and why would i knock if i know he's up to no good? so he has time to hide what he's doing? sorry but i have to protect him and everyone else and if he didn't have a history of stealing things that could hurt him and hiding them in his room i wouldn't have to barge into his room to check on him. it's my job as a parent to make sure he is not doing those things. when he eventually learns to cut that out then he will earn privacy. it's not like he's a teenager and he's doing private things in there. from the attitude you have i'm sure your step-father had good reason to take your doors off.

missykrissy
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 319

10 Mar 2011, 10:15 am

liloleme wrote:

i know i already had some advice given to me. like i said earlier i can't remember everything i have ever been told. i have been working on some of those things. some of them are stupid ideas that won't work for me. others i forgot. i don't have that much support. my husband can't handle SS at all. he sends him to his room for every little thing. at least i am trying to correct him and redirect him to better behaviour. he spends most of his time not here or playing video games. he also does alot of the work around the house because he doesn't want to be the one who is watching the kids because he can't handle it so then it's up to me. anyways, there's a huge difference between ignoring and forgetting.
and to ediself: i barge into his room to prevent stuff like this lady went through because i'm sure if he had the chance he would set the house on fire.......

missykrissy
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 319

10 Mar 2011, 10:21 am

tskin1 wrote:

yes, you pretty much nailed it here. it is soo hard to see any of the good stuff when the bad stuff is all around you. i also don't get why i would bother bringing up the good points when i am not here looking for help with the good points. i am trying to get the problem behaviour to stop which has nothing to do with his good qualities. if i wasn't trying i would have put him in a 'theraputic placement' long ago when i first realized that he wasn't going to ever stop crying and screaming.

missykrissy
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 319

10 Mar 2011, 10:26 am

cloudy wrote:

This post has really disturbed me. The basis being that you have too much to cope with! Your expectationsa re far to high for this little boy, he is reacting to the instability of not understanding where he fits and how to behave. Hes 5!! ! Emotinally , he is a baby. Hes stealing, thats pretty normal for a five year old nt to be honest!

Please seek support, you need to change your way of thinking, you need to learn how autism prevents development and you need to learn to understand how the world is presenting to him, how your communcation is presenting to him. Everything needs to be black and white. Set rules for your family, set achievable and consistent rewards for all of the children and make sure that the consequence is not wooly and that it is as simple as possible.

Supervision is the key, it seems you are just muddling along in chaos, this has to change. Consistency is hard work but its what he needs, you other children will benefit too.

There is no question you have your hands full and it seems that you are struggling to get in front. You have to do whatever to make sure you are always one step ahead. No children should have access to shampoos and makeup never doubt that. Children are hard work, Nt and AS

i find it funny when you said no children should have access to shampoo or makeup. most children wouldn't bother messing with it because they know what it is, what it's for and that it's not for them. they can usually see oh, that's put up high so they know it's not for them. not many would climb up the back of the toilet and onto a shelf to get at it, or for shampoo climb up the toilet and onto the sink to be able to reach it. i don't think that most parents need to keep stuff like that locked up.
i think i am consistant. there is a schedule we follow. there are rules laid out and all the kids know them. there are consequences to those rules which they know will follow if they break the rules.

ediself
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Oct 2010
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,202
Location: behind you!!!

10 Mar 2011, 10:27 am

missykrissy wrote:

I have to ask. Where is the father and what is he doing? How can he not react to your attitude with his child? I don't like the way you talk about him, it's not about the locking of the bathroom, it's not about the lack of privacy ( if you startle him by barging into his bedroom, he WILL look like he's up to something even when he's not, you realise that right?) it's the way you see him that is wrong. You just copy your twisted ideas, paste them onto him, and become convinced that he is a bad child. It's mean spirited, because i have not had an example from reading your posts of anything he might have done that qualifies him as bad. Stealing at 5: not weird. But stealing what, for what purpose and why, what are the reasons for it, is what you should be asking yourself. Is the answer always no when he asks for something? that could be why he thinks that the only way he will have anything he wants is by not asking for it.
Making a mess in the bathroom? But, madam, has it occured to you to put your valuables in a cabinet, away from the reach of a child? If you look closely on most of the bottles he plays with, you will see a little inscription stating: "keep out of children's reach". That's parenting, not locking rooms. A "history" of stealing...at 5....you realise what you're saying? he's not a criminal!! He will "earn" privacy......the words you use make me want to scream. You're a bully, no less. And regarding your last sentence, keep going, I'm not about be fazed by seeing an abuser turn to me when i defend their victim. It's to be expected.

_________________
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/autism ... cs-france/

missykrissy
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 319

10 Mar 2011, 10:33 am

twinplets wrote:

I would like to just follow DW a Mom along and say ditto. At first, I too thought this was a much older, disturbed child. This kid is only 5 and it sounds like all the adults in his life have failed him. I am sorry he came to you this way. It isn't fair that you have to find the answers. However, I am assuming you knew he was a part of the package when you married his father. (I don't recall any of your other posts, so if the backstory is different, I'm sorry.) Someone needs to find the answers for this child. What you are doing isn't working. It is time to do some research and find some alternatives. It is better than being angry at a child and expecting him to figure it out and fix it on his own. It can only make your homelife better. I agree that is sounds like you are overwhelmed and feel like you don't have the time to research and fight for this little boy, but it can only make your life better. I think it is a good time investment for your family.

As a reformed strict parent, what you are doing won't work. I was raised an only child. I am NT. My Mom was very strict. I thought I was going to be able to throw my kids "the look" and they would know to knock off whatever they were doing. Doesn't work so well when "the look" isn't even registered by my AS kid. My son is very high functioning. He read and did math very early. He is also very social. He seeks out friends, so even though we did have him tested at 3 years old by a very good neuropsychologist, his was a case of needing to wait a few years for the differences to become apparent enough to pinpoint a diagnosis. I let an old fashioned first grade teacher tie me into knots trying to force me to see my son was either ADHD ( he can focus fine on anything if he is in a quiet place.) or very manipulative. As a result, I came down very strict and very hard on my son that year. I wish I could take back every punishment I gave him that year.

By that way. You never mentioned his Dad. Is he an active part of his son's life? Or did Dad just dump the problems of his son onto you? He absolutely needs to be a part of this. If his Dad is uninvolved, the boy can feel this too and it can't be helping the family dynamic. I can't give you any concrete ideas because it doens't sound like you have researched and looked objectively at what is triggereing his behaviours. Since everyone is different, it is hard to say with him. However, this can be turned around, but it will take some work first.

we did not know about SS when we got together. we were contacted two years later and he was asked to sign his rights away so SS could be adopted out. at that point we already had a baby together. we were given custody of SS instead of him signing his rights away. we were not told he was special needs before we got him. i figured it out quickly though and started searching for any doctors that would listen and help. dad is here. he is somewhat involved but most of it falls on me. there was a period where i kept asking him to handle SS behaviour but he handled it by giving him what seemed like never ending time outs. so i took over again. at least now he doesn't get in trouble for little things like yelling instead of talking, interupting people and getting hyper. i just tell him he's doing it and ask him not to unless it something that is obviously defiant or bad, like the stealing.

twinplets
Sea Gull

Joined: 22 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 201

10 Mar 2011, 11:14 am

missykrissy wrote:

Then it sounds like this kid had a rough start for any kid, NT or AS, and would have shown some problems adjusting no matter what the circumstance. Do some reading, figure out what makes him act and react in the ways he does, make a plan, get on the same page as your DH, and show this kid some consistency and love. Give him a family. I know he isn't easy to love right now. It isn't his fault though. It won't be easy. Sometimes I don't like my kid very much either and I spent years and thousands of dollars trying to have a child. I always love him though. As I researched and learned about AS, I found solutions and he has become a joy. He is still more work than my other 4 all together, but it isn't nearly as hard as it was a few years ago.

If your SS has no other mother, please start looking at him as your kid and a part of your family. He didn't ask to be born under the circumstances he was born into and it isn't his fault he came to you this way, so please stop resenting him. I think it is undestandable for you to have bad feelings about the situation you have had dropped on you. However, vent to your husband, a couselor, a support group. Get your feelings out elsewhere, so that you can find compassion and objectivity in your dealings with this little boy.

I feel bad for all of you. No one was given an ideal situation. However, you took custody of him and so it is your responsibility to love and help him.

tskin1
Raven
Raven

Joined: 7 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 119
Location: Michigan, USA

10 Mar 2011, 11:28 am

Ok so the solution for the bathroom there are 2 things possibly 3

1. turn the setting down on your hot water heater this will eliminate chance of burn or shut the water off under the sink at nite.
he will only know how to turn it back on if he sees you shut if off. make sure there is some kind of hand sanitizer tho even if it's a travel size.

2. get a large tool box or tackle box and a lock put all shampoo, toothpaste, razors, makeup ect. anything that is dangerous, you dont want wasted or he can hurt himself with in and lock it.. if you want them seperated get more than one they aren't very expensive and you can find them at walmart most times they also have them in thrift stores and goodwill and stuff.
Also for shampoo and such get the travel size containers and put the shampoo/conditioner in those so if he does waste them it will only be a small amt.

3. If he puts things down the toilet get a toilet lock those also are at walmart and make sure there is a potty chair.

He will learn over time not to be wasteful it's somthing that has to be taught and he's too young to understand the concept at 5 years old. I am sure tho as another person had mentioned that he's finding some kind of thrill from color or smell or somthing and this is why he's interested in those things. My son poured out more shampoo and toothpaste than I can mention, ruined more make up ect. and as i told you in private IM a few days ago I did for a time lock the door too it just isn't a solution ... instead lock up what you dont want touched..

Kids at 5 years old are curious and exploring their world and trying things out is part of how they grow and learn try to keep this in mind

tskin1
Raven
Raven

Joined: 7 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 119
Location: Michigan, USA

10 Mar 2011, 11:43 am

Quote:

we stopped at a store quick to pick something up we needed and headed out to the river to feed some ducks like we usually do. step-son pulls out a pair of mittens that have the tags still on and aren't his and says"oh, look i got new mittens." yes, stolen from the store we were just in, which he denies stealing. so obviously i didn't let him wear them and he had a huge meltdown. he claims he hates his mitts and he can't wear his horrible hat when he is the one who picked them out of the box at home. at this point the river is right there and i promised my other kids they could see the ducks and that was pretty much what the outing was for. step-son made the rest of the walk miserable with his screaming about the mittens i stole from him. then he threw rocks at the ducks and tried to headbutt my baby. i sent him to his room again. i don't know what else to do.

-when you realize he's stolen somthing it's ok to make him take them back and apologize to the person at the counter

-the meltdown was probably a tantrum common to any 5 year old who doesn't get their way he was upset because he really really wanted the mittons (does not mean you were wrong not to give them to him)

-it's good the other kids still got to see the ducks unfortunate that ss was so angry he couldn't enjoy it .. I dont know how much actual talking you do in a situation like this .. is it mostly lecture??? it's possible the tantrum happened because he felt you weren't listening to him or "hearing".

-you mentioned about the other kids... he obviously cares for your other kids or he wouldn't make them part of his plan a bit like GI joe and he's the one in charge. but when he got caught of course he will try to blame it on someone else because he doesn't want to get in trouble lol

I know you dont like time outs but they do honestly work when done right.... and just because they might not work one week doesn't mean they wont the next key is to be calm when you do them explain why and ask for an apology later maybe give idea's of what they can do instead and then give hugs showing them your not gonna hold it agains them you still love them.

with this mitton situation 1. make him accountable have him return the mittens 2. when he throws the tantrum first give him a warning that if you continue this you will get a time out and then give one. doesn't matter if your in public. then on with the fun

Bombaloo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,483
Location: Big Sky Country

10 Mar 2011, 12:32 pm

missykrissy wrote:

I'm not sure this is true. We had to tie the kitchen chairs to the kitchen table so that my NT son would stop using them to climb up on to the counter and get into stuff in the cabinets. I've talked to many moms who's kids have done similar things. I think most kids DO mess with stuff they are curious about. Kids don't really know that it's not for them and even if you have told them that, it may take repeated attempts to teach them such concepts. What I found out about myself with my ASD son is that my expectations of him were not in line with what he was capable of doing and learning. I see some of the same in some of the comments you've made like the one I quoted above. It's not that you are bad or wrong it just takes some serious searching to see what expectations may be more appropriate for your SS. When your expectations are more in line then you see where he needs more support in learning important lessons. You may think he should be able to learn something after being told once or twice but maybe he needs to be told more times or in a different way before it will really stick with him. I would ask you to consider that maybe when you think he does, he really doesn't "know better".

missykrissy
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 319

10 Mar 2011, 12:43 pm

thank you, tskin1. i loved the pics you showed me with the bathroom mess. i have seen many of those in the last couple years. your little guy is super cute too! i did not have a chance to answer your pm again because i was trying to respond to everyone on the thread but i ran out of time. i am okay with time outs but he hits himself when i give him time out. this is something i try to ignore so i don't make it worse but if he keeps going i tell him that's not going to help him get off any faster. at school his teachers aid runs over and hugs him when he hits himself and i asked her not to do that because i think it makes things worse by giving in to him when he does it. he had pretty much stopped doing that completely over the summer and was also listening alot better but when school started back up he went back to it. i am going to set up a time out area just for him. the other kids take time out on the bottom stair but that doesn't work for him because it's hard to see him there and he hits himself or makes holes in the wall. i tried giving him a chair just around the corner. he will stay sitting on it but he keeps slamming it at the same time. i am now thinking maybe a small carpet would work away from any walls and other things he could use against himself.
when he was tantruming about the mitts he may have just been doing a normal tantrum. i'm not sure as my other kids are more of the sulking type then the screaming/yelling type. he was warned to stop. next time he does that will time out him even if we are at the mall. i did tell him i knew he wanted the mitts but that doesn't mean he can just take them. weither he heard me or not i don't know because his ears tend to turn off when he's upset.
what you said about the kids being like big toys to him makes alot of sense. i know he lied about doing those things because he didn't want to get in trouble but i am trying to teach them all that lieing is not okay and it's better to tell the truth and take their punishment and that they will be in less trouble if they do that instead of lieing. i hate being lied to, even if i know the reason it's still not okay to me for them to lie.
next time i get paid i will go looking for boxes that lock to put my stuff in and i will probably get one for my 12yo too since she can't stand when he gets into her stuff. she has a latch on her door that keeps him out when she's not here but sometimes she forgets when she is here to lock it. my house has no hot water shut off thing under the sink and i don't know if i can turn the temperature down because the hot water heats the house. the shut off valve is all the way in the basement that is icky with spiders and webs everywhere and who knows what down there....eww..not going down there unless it's an emergency. the house is kindof weird because it was built in the 1800's and it's definitely not up to code. i don't see the difference between if i gave him a potty chair to use and putting one in the bathroom and locking the toilet. either way, when he needs to pee he wakes up screaming and one of us gets him and takes him to the toilet so he isn't sitting up there trying to hold it in or anything. maybe there is something i could get at the hardware store that would make the kids not able to turn the hot water part of the tap.

liloleme
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Jun 2008
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,762
Location: France

10 Mar 2011, 12:46 pm

I didnt tell you my story so you could justify anything that you do. The harder you push this kid the worse things are going to become. Im sorry your husband is not helpful, I understand that as well, my X husband was abusive and I raised my kids on my own even when I was with him.
Im sorry no one here can help you because we all just give out advice that is "stupid". I shared some really personal things on this board and I shared them with you in the hopes of trying to help you a bit but I agree, in this situation, it was stupid. All these people on here are raising kids with ASD and, I dont know, they might know something, maybe???

Last edited by liloleme on 11 Mar 2011, 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

10 Mar 2011, 1:03 pm

tskin1 wrote:

He will learn over time not to be wasteful it's somthing that has to be taught and he's too young to understand the concept at 5 years old. I am sure tho as another person had mentioned that he's finding some kind of thrill from color or smell or somthing and this is why he's interested in those things. My son poured out more shampoo and toothpaste than I can mention, ruined more make up ect. and as i told you in private IM a few days ago I did for a time lock the door too it just isn't a solution ... instead lock up what you dont want touched..

Kids at 5 years old are curious and exploring their world and trying things out is part of how they grow and learn try to keep this in mind

My son was doing that sort of thing up until he was 10 or so, and my daughter until she was 8 or so. It's frustrating, but perfectly normal. My solution?

1) I put out smaller containters (buy a small bottle and a large, hide the large and use it to refill)
2) If they wasted too much, they needed to pay for the materials used up from their allowance (it's usually only a few dollars worth)
3) They had to clean up their own mess

I read these threads and think I must be the most lenient parent in the world but here's the end truth: my kids are really good kids. Excellent students, welcome guests. But they are ... kids. Home is their free place. The world won't end if a few rules and assumptions get laxed up a bit.

_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).

Page 4 of 8 [ 125 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

Jump to:

just when i think.... Post Reply New Topic

just when i think....