just when i think....

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well, the moral support that you gave was helpful in that previous thread. it's not only you, alot of people have given me what is good advice to them, because they understand what they mean by it and how to accomplish it but if i have no idea how to put the concept into place with steps i can actually take than the good advice is not useful.
i will try to find some toys that will engage him. he actually has a puzzle thing with locks on it by Mellissa and Doug, too bad they didn't have them when your son was younger. SS really likes to destroy things. i would not give him real tools. he has a craftsman tool bench with battery powered tools that interested him for all of one day.
i think i just figured something out..... he seems to gravitate to two types of things..... things that are powdery/messy like sand, my makeup and smashing up chalk, and things that are pointy and dangerous... which i hate but things like needles, skewers, pins, thumbtacs, earings, screws, nails, broaches, and knives(which are all locked up now).

for some reason reading that I am reminded that as a child my sister brothers and I used to climb walls.. you know like in an archway haha monkeys indeed!

HOLDING I never could do the hug because mine did hurt me and it broke my heart lol but what finally worked if he was physically agressive was to hold his hands above his head by the wrists and simply say "i will let go as soon as you calm down" .. he would fight for a minute then say 'i calm' i'd let go he'd be fine.

LYING my son at 5 really wasn't understanding what a lie was he said he understood but continued to do it so I made teaching him a game... I took him outside i said ok this is the true or lie game I tell you somthing and you say if it's true or a lie.. I would say the water on the pond is pink he'd say Lie i'd laugh and say that's fantastic anyway slowly i added situations and things and eventually he started to understand what it meant to lie.. I might add too that once he got it he never told another lie untill about two weeks ago. (even in the face of getting in trouble)

TRANSITION The headstart my son went to used a bell and also turning on and shutting off the lights.. this was to get his attention then they would tell him in 5 minutes we will be going to recess.. they would do it again at the 1 minutes mark. worked really really well I still use the light trick

SELF REGULATE when william was that age I would teach him to close his eyes and take 3 deep breaths it would get his mind off whatever was upsetting him and he would calm right now (doesn't work now at 10 but it worked great at 5)

SIBLINGS reading all these I remembered also when william would hurt angelina or play inappropriately ect... instead of just punishment I would say things like 'would you want someone to hit you how would it feel if they did.. would it hurt your feelings if your truck got broken' things like that so he was able to see it related to himself this really really helped.. i would also give him suggestions of better choices and teach him how to respond like if angelina took his truck he wanted to hit her i would teach him to give her another truck and if she didn't want that one to offer another... explaining that if he wanted to play it would make him sad if nobody would let him. this did wonders for helping him socially

when william would not answer me i would do this.... i tell him william you need to pick up your toy .. no answer .. i would say "ok mom" and he'd repeat "ok mom" lol we still do this helps me know he actually heard me.


DW I think I actually read not too many years ago in one of my nursing journals that they do not use this anymore because a child or maybe it was more than one had sufficated lol .. i could be wrong but anyway I know what you mean while your doing it you feel like your just destroying their spirit and it really really breaks your heart

My "orders" go a bit like this:" -It's time to pick up all your legos now,come on let's go!
-yeah ok.
- it's time to pick up your legos, hello?
- yeah ok.
- are you going to get up and do it then?
-what?
-pick up your legos!
-yeah ok.
-can you repeat what i just said?
-what what? what did you say?
- please pick up your legos.
-Ah yeah! ok."
I stay on it until i'm pretty sure he heard me

ediself- lol exactely!! ! I find too i need to stick around while he picks up the legos and keep helping to remind him if i were to send him into his room to "clean" it ... he might put somthing away but that would be need... lots of reinforcement and support needed to accomplish tasks that require more than a minute to complete

somtimes I feel like i'm talking to myself because he doesn't even say 'yeah ok' lol keep having to remind him nobody likes to be ignored lol I'm also sure to the casual onlooker that they must assume i'm ready for the loony bin when it seems i'm answering myself!! !! ! lol

With my son I used to have to say, "I want you to repeat to me what I just asked you."

He rarely could.

The "yeah, OK" with him was to get me to shut up because I was interferring with whatever he was focused on at the moment. It did not mean he had actually listened. So, to verify the later, I needed the repeat.

Thankfully, they learn!

tksin, I know there was some controversial hold being used in special needs schools, but I can't imagine the one I was taught being dangerous. I mean, if you are that close to a child, how could the child have trouble breathing without you being aware and RELEASING?

missykrissy, I'll have to think about your living situation. That is a rough one. You have NO space, and no way to be alone as a couple, even, do you? Families need the foundation ie mom and dad to be strong (emotionally, mentally), and it sounds like the living situation works hard to nick that.

Hey MissyKrissy-

I haven't checked this thread in a few days, but I just want to say that I think you are on the right track of trying to figure things out for your SS. I know this is a tough road, especially since he is not your biological child, but I think you are really trying to make things better.

My son is 5.5, almost 6 too. Right around the time he turned 5 was when I noticed a very defiant streak in him develop. This is when he started swinging his arms at me and hitting me when things did not go his way. He even hit me across the face a few times. All I can say is that my son is an only child, he is my biological child, very much wanted. He has been shown nothing but love and patience since the day he came into this world. My husband and I have never abused him, we are not violent people. I am a very peaceful person by nature, and yet my son thinks it is okay to whack me across the face. I even admitted here on WP, that I finally lost it one day and hit him back. It totally broke my heart and I was upset for days. He has gotten a little better about it, but he still starts swinging his arms at me when he is mad. So I have really started to stay in tune and watch for things that are going to trigger him. When I see him starting to get amped up, I grab his arms and squeeze them firmly and say NO, we are not going to do this. I try my best to get behind him and get him into a bear hug from behind. That way, I can give him deep pressure which has a calming affect on him. I keep holding his arms down, and telling him to calm down. And just keep holding his arms down.

Just because a kid is just 5 does not mean they can't hurt you. If I just let my son go, I am sure he would have really hurt me by now. It is really sad. Sometimes, I just wonder why my son can get this way. It has to be the AS. He has never been around violent behavior like this. It really makes me feel like I am not a good parent, but I know that is not true. I am doing everything I can to help him learn to control his emotions. And trying to show him other things he can do like punching the couch.

Most of the time my son is a very sweet little boy, but when he gets upset........Watch out.

Well, I guess I didn't really offer you any advice, but I just want you to know that you are not alone, and not everyone has a perfect handle on things. I only have ONE child, and I don't feel like I have it under control.

We also use this - drives my son nuts, but eventually the information does get in there if you keep at it. Typically, the exchange with the repeat-back takes three to five tries, so don't be discouraged if you get "yes" twice and then "I don't remember" and then anger and then finally he repeats it back.

Also, when my son was small and we couldn't have a sandbox, I made him a "bean box" out of an old cooler and about 30 pounds of cheap dried pinto beans and a bunch of standard sandbox toys. He played with it for hours. If lentils are cheaper, they might be a better option as they're smaller and won't get stuck up noses, etc. Sensory play is really important for kids who have these kinds of needs, it might take a while to find the right thing.

Also - as far as the holding-down thing goes: it didn't work for us. Not because my son didn't need restraint, but I couldn't keep my temper while DS was trying to struggle free to hurt me, and a critical piece of that strategy is staying calm yourself.

We finally made sure his room was a safe place, and last year we put a lock on the outside of it. I didn't have this when he was five - when he was that little, I would just stand outside the door and hold it closed until he was calm, and listen to make sure he wasn't finding a way I hadn't thought of to hurt himself. It's critical that you stay calmly by the door just in case something goes wrong - my son was not a climber, so this may not work for you, but I just wanted to offer a different way to handle the same thing.

We worked for several years to get him to go to his room to calm down when he starts to melt down; it's been critical for all of us.

I can so relate to the "yeah ok" or the "huh" look.
What I introduced about 3-4 years ago,( J would have been about 8 or 9) is a big sheet of laminated cardboard, it is divided into several sections ie, before school, after school, dinner time, bed time. Then I had picture cards made up and laminated these to. I used pictures I found on the net, in magazines and some I had to draw, because J is older I had simple words written on each picture card as well.
Examples of the pictures; take your meds, put your socks and shoes on, get dressed, pack school bag, brush teeth, reading time, game time, put your toys away. Then I used a plastic take away food container and wrote FINISHED on it in bright colors with happy smiles all over it. I put velcro on the back of all of the picture cards and then put about 5 velcro dots on the bigger laminated card board sheet. I then slowly taught J that instead of me continuously asking him have you done this have you done that, I would say check your schedule. As J completed each item that I'd stuck on his schedule, he would remove that item/picture and place it in the FINISHED box. At the end of each before school, list of items I'd left a small section for me to use a white board maker to either tick or put a smiley face. He would get one of these if all morning items had been complete with minimal reminders. To start with though we started with very little expectation, we still had to remind him to stay on task. It took several consistent weeks before he could do the bulk of it with just a "check your schedule" from me. At the end of the day I would add up his ticks, if he had more ticks than not he would get a reward he could choose out of a selection that I had given him. It may have been an extra 15 minutes of pc time, or extra before bed reading time etc. Or he could choose to save his extra rewards and cash them in on the weekend, eg's an hour extra game time, dropping a chore off his list, a visit to the museum.
We very rarely use this schedule any more because the routine behaviors are now just that; routines. Every now and then though I will use it for a short while, only when his routine is being thrown or he is particularly stressed. I wish I had of used this schedule earlier, it did wonders to releave some stress in our house.

DW- yes i believe it was within the school and was a type of hug maybe we're just more intuned when it's our child idk ... The company that works with my son (comes to the home) has tried to teach me their hold technique but OMG i can't get old of the lil guy he's way too fast and flailing and just wow .. i give so much credit to the men and wemon who help work with our kids and quite often are under paid and get very little in the way of thank yous

pat on the back for all of us too lol god knew what he was doing when he put these kids in our hands.. knew we could handle it we just sometimes aren't sure i think

tski----you are so right. I had lunch today with a friend who happened to be over one night when my son was throwing a fit. She said she could not believe the way he was acting, and if was her, she would have just taken him to his room and beat his butt. She said" I guess God gave him to you for a reason." I know that I totally adore my son, but sometimes all of the obstacles that we have to overcome seem to be so hard. But, I just keep putting one foot forward each day, and I just try to forget about the bad days and just move on to the next day..

I know what you mean it's so very hard for people who dont live this life to see it and not be completely confused by our calm in what they would be flipping out at lol... I see it in people I have dated who cannot believe I dont beat the child when he breaks a chair , flip out when I am awaken at 4am and my clean house now looks like a war zone ..or any number of things.. kinda disheartening when you consider the prospect of ever remarrying lol (I mean who would ever have the patience for our lives? lol well and love our kids as much as we do

And I so completely agree with you angelbear it really are the good days that can get us through the bad...also places like this where we can vent in the middle of our storms and know we arn't alone!

I only had time to make it about 3/4 of the way through your thread... but I have some thoughts.

1. Time out shouldn't really be about punishment. It should be tool used to calm down and regroup. (for both of you)
Have you considered alternate timeouts? 5 minutes of coloring, a puzzle, even 20 push ups can divert attention (not that my son can do a push up, but he tries and that usually leads to laughing and crisis averted!)

2. Good behavior is NOT a conscious decision for a 5 year old with his issues. I know some people have kind of said this.. but I felt it needed to be said a little blunter.

3. Remember how you felt as a kid! This is one of my biggest tools as a parent. I remember how I felt as a child when I was wasn't given a voice, or I felt that I wasn't treated fairly. As an adult, I evaluate my parent's choices. Was there a good reason? Does it make sense to me now? If so, how can I help my child understand the reasoning? THEN I look at it through my AS son's eyes! A lot of parents think they shouldn't have to explain themselves to their child... but isn't your child worth your words? If 30 seconds or 3 minutes of explanation can divert a meltdown and make your child more secure in his place in the whole scheme of things, isn't it worth it? You expect him to explain himself to you, right? Teach him how by doing it yourself... (then remember that he still might not have the skills".

4. Pick your battles! OMG! It took me forever to learn this one. Yes, maybe your son is too loud and wakes up the baby (maybe not, just picking something), but is this something he can control? You can remind him... but have no business getting mad at him. My son likes to get up early and sneak candy from the kitchen. I used to punish him by not giving him desert that night... but the problem with that is in his mind, what he did that morning has no direct correlation to what happens that night. Sense of time is distorted. He doesn't relate that both are "treats" and the one replaces the other.

5. Think outside the box. Zip-ties. Zip-tie your cabinet doors together so they can't be opened without scissors. Usually a physical barrier is enough to deter my son... It might not work.. but you can get a ton for pretty cheap, so it doesn't hurt to try.

6. Take "step son" out of your vocabulary... Speaking as a stepchild... the designation hurts. If you want him to act like a member of the family, you have to treat him like a member of the family.

7. Share more of the "good stuff". This might not seem like the area you want to focus on, but knowing what works and activities that are enjoyed will help others get a better feel of your child and therefore offer better advice.

Also- My son used to not sleep well at night.. There were two problems going on.. 1) He doesn't require much sleep and 2) I felt all children should be in bed by 8! When I decided that it was better for both of us that he sleep further into the morning instead of waking up at 3-3:30, I tried keeping him up later.. When possible, he stays up until 10:30 and (usually) sleeps until after 6am. I know your son is younger and that you've got several kids you probably want to go down so you can have grown-up/unwind time.. but maybe the three of you can come up with something he can quietly do ..watch tv in bed, read, even quietly working Legos. My son and I usually watch tv together.. This might be a good way for the two of you to have bonding time.

Good luck!

wow, its been along time since ive been on here, i guess i only come on when things have been at breaking point!! ! i usually just read it cheers me up, then i read your posts, i know its a while ago and i hope things are looking up for you guys. i find the only true way of getting into my sons world is often through his fave topics, whether i like them or not, i find whilst painting warhammer i can try to find out how things are really going, he finds it difficult to truly verbalise his feelings, but at these times he is most at ease. some times i write him a list of questions after a meltdown, he does not like this, but is preferable to talking, and he does answer now, where as a year ago he would have screwed the paper up!!
You have to man up, be an adult and see the one who has the difficulties, his life is so much harder than yours, concentrate on the good points, i have spent years learning to understand my son and never truly will, and vice versa from his point of view- nt and female!! in other words neurotic on a monthly basis!! All i can say is EDUCATE,UNDERSTAND and be a truly loving mum to all your children, they did not ask to be here, they owe you nothing, expect nothing, no children are Bad Asd or otherwise, if they are we make them so......Oh and antipsychotics WTF!! !! !! ! at five, do you want him locked up by 18, probably the drugs dont help, try homeopathy, placebo pills any thing but, we are all aware how much medical bodies make from the drug companies, Why does half of America have the children on drugs, what kind of future is being created, it was never needed before, its not needed now, i wish people would open thier eyes, children need lots of time, love and a large dose of nature, sorry to go of on a tangent, thats one thing that makes me sooo sad. My son is 13 and has asperger, it has been a long hard ride, and will continue to be, he was so angry this mornin he was going to "slit my throat" but these are just words, he was in such a state, yet this eve its all forgotten he chilled, i used to hold on to these words, but its just anger, in the moment, one good point of as, is when a meltdowns gone, its gone, its me that would usually hold to stuff by getting hurt by thing he would do and say, i thought of taking his x box, after this morn, but it dosent work, you just have to move on, weve gone from a major meltdown to happy, calm by leavinig the situation alone, isnt that what we all want, a little slice of calm.....mmmmm, good luck, soz about the rant!

after readiing more thoroughly through your thread i had a few thoughts, my mum is a foster carer and has looked after children with attachment disorders, behaviours are very similer to those on the autistic spectrum, yet come from neglect and lack of input as a young child, also attention seeking behaviours are very common. With the fact your son has had such a rough start are you even sure its as, im not saying you dont know what your talking about but he sounds more emotionally unsettled than as to me. My son is 13 and is perseveveringly manipulative, but only to get something he really wants or needs, often the result in not getting what he needs will result in major anxiety, so his behaviour is justified. Can i say i wuold think it very rare for an AS child to steal due to thier very honest nature, and often high morals. My foster sister stole all the time, maybe due to wanting to be accepted, ie; taking someones stuff, wanting to be like a certain person, or have things because of the lack of love. In England it is a nightmare trying to get a dx, yet in America it seems thier handed out like theres no tomorrow, i would just hope your absolutely 100 percent its AS and behaviour not due to his terrible start. sorry if this upsets you.

he's on his medication for a reason. he was hurting himself all the time, like seriously injuring himself. giving himself bloody noses, black eyes, big bumps on his head, splitting his lips. he was also destroying the house and could have gotten killed the day he smashed his head through the window but luckily the glass didn't fall when it smashed other than the peices directly where he hit it. he also tried to smother my other son by wrapping a blanket around his neck and face and pressing down on his mouth. he was attacking other kids and he wasn't allowed in school at that point because he was hurting himself there all the time and other kids. he also smashed all the pictures hanging in the hallway when he got sent to the office. he was biting me and hitting me when i tried to help him and he even peed on me on purpose a couple times. the anti-psychotics are necessary as he has calmed way down on the violence and the non-stop screams but it hasn't taken them away completely. at the point when he went on the medication it was either medication or having him placed in a home. sorry if you don't agree with it but it's something i had to do. i doubt he was enjoying what he was doing to himself and no one else was enjoying it either. thankfully that is over now and i hope it stays that way. he has been hitting himself again but nothing like he was doing before. clearly you have no idea what it's like to live with someone who is always in attack mode

I also haven't been on this site for a while and caught this thread. I wanted to just share that my daughter was violent and defiant at age 5. It was the beginning of some very tough times for us because, in hindsight, it is my belief she was in a phase where she wanted to exert her will, as if she was just coming to realize she had the power to do so. Most NT kids I believe hit a phase where they test their own independence from their parents-also known as the terrible 2's and 3's. For my daughter this really started happening around age 5. She was impossible to control at times and would become violent if she didn't get her way. Some of this was due to communication difficulties.

I see that some have recommended holding your son in a bear hug but that did not work for us. If your son is extremely oppositional like my daughter was he will never relent and you will spend hours holding him down. This was counterproductive for us. However, there did come a time when I had to confine my daughter to her room through locking her in and while this seems extreme I stayed at the door and listened for her to calm down. She knew that calming down was the only way out and occassionally it would take hours to happen. This was to protect myself from physical harm and confine the destruction to her room. She punched out her bedroom window and destroyed many, many things. She has been papoosed by medical professionals when she has become violent towards them. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do, safely, to protect yourself and your child.

At age 5 everything in my home most definitely did have to be secured and locked up. She was supervised 24/7. There seemed to be very little "down time" with her-she was always into something, breaking something, hurting herself, or tantruming. She was so reactive to the sensory bombardment and I didn't know how to control it. At times it seemed as if the skin on her own body was drving her insane. I shudder now to think of how utterly miserable she was and how she NEEDED me to fix things and I didn't have a clue on where to start.

All that being said I will also state that my daughter was acting this way because of my ineffective ways of dealing with her differences. I was using NT disciplinary techniques that were just never going to work on her. (If you have a splitting headache drving you insane and someone puts you in a timeout what does that teach you???) I thought her defiance was not to be tolerated and that children must behave or suffer the consequences. I spent a lot of WASTED time on these techniques and therapists, etc. It was only upon my daughter's diagnosis of AS and a stern "telling it like it is" by the neuropsych that I began to realize that things were going to have to SERIOUSLY change. I let go of my need for my child to be compliant and subservient and obedient. I focused much more on positive rewards for positive behavior and withdrawing attention in times of negative behavior. The anxiety levels of our household went down rapidly once I turned around my way of thinking. I started to try to identify "currency" for my daughter-things that she WANTED. This was hard because it seemed she was always reacting in the moment as opposed to enjoying anything. I had to get down on her level and engage in actively trying to determine what she liked. Then those things were utilized to coax her into #1 a better general mood and #2 compliance with critical rules. This was only possible after I identified her triggers and greatly reduced her anxiety.

The neuropsych who gave me a stern talking to told me to identify what the behavior issues were. I made a list. We then put that list into descending order of importance, with safety issues being on the top (like not getting burned or running into the street). Working on ONLY the top item at a time, I focused on that behavior and let the others go off my parental radar. One by one, we focused on the target/desired behavior and worked toward making that change. Of course, there were setbacks and the priority list changed but we worked our way down the list very very slowly (over TWO years).

In order to make these types of changes in our home it required massive amounts of structure and routine. My daughter had to stop being "reactive" 24/7 so she could act in a focused/controlled way. I had to eliminate her triggers. She had to KNOW what was going to happen and when so she could relax enough to feel happy and realize hat she wanted to feel that way more. She is almost eight and we still live by a set schedule. things are much, much better now. I do remember those times and how hard they were so I would really encourage you to try some of these things.