Sometimes I just would love my mom to fark off.

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I hope you don't really want to "argue" with me in pm, although I would suspect there might have been a comment or two you would have wanted to clarify or question I almost went back the next day to clarify, but feared with my current mood I'd just dig myself in further. But, yes, thank you for not making me talk about anything too touchy; touchy subjects haven't worked well for me lately, with the craziness in my real life. I appreciate it.

On the later ... while issues with slang can exist for everyone, it seems to be more prevalent and to cause more problems for someone with AS. In my observation NTs generally know pretty fast they've made a blunder, by sensing the reaction of the other party, and move almost instantly to correct it, while my son will either be totally oblivious to the situation, or will go about fixing it all wrong ... in both cases, just making it all worse.

You are correct that "drop off" still seems to be a version of slang, but I think it has dug much deeper into common usage, and has less possibility for missunderstanding. I guess the most "proper" way to say it would be "bring the children to daycare."

Oh yes I remember what I wanted to say but decided it wasn't important about knowing what you find wrong with my humor and the rest was about old staff team.


That makes sense about aspies goofing up and NTs. With me I have no idea why the person got so upset. I think they over reacted or took what I said the wrong way or out of context. I think most of the time it's their problem not mine. I remember asking here if my aunt was over reacting over my "cheap" compliment or did I really do something wrong. In my experience when I would try and make things more clear what I said, people go on thinking I contradicted myself so I find it's better if I don't correct them and leave them be wrong. Lot of people can't seem to realize they were wrong about something and took something the wrong way or misunderstood so they assume the person is contradicting themselves when they try and correct them being more clear.

Humor isn't usually about "right" and "wrong" but about personal taste. But, because humor often runs so close to the edge between funny and offensive, it's best in public to stick to what 99% of the people are likely to find funny. In private, with the people you already know share your taste, you let loose with the whole nine yards.



To me, there is no communication if someone takes something I said in a way I didn't mean it to be said. I wouldn't understand the point in talking if I wasn't trying to be understood properly. So, when there is a history of being missunderstand, getting your point across may require you to stick the simpliest, easiet, most bland language - and to avoid trying to be funny with the person. Which is pretty much why my son stopped using slang. He's wickedly funny in my opinion, but he keeps it to friends and family (and his games and fictional writing). He rarely has issues now, and he's much happier that way. But, that was his choice; it does mean he's filtering himself most of the time, and not letting people know the true him, and that is a trade off not everyone will be willing to make.

DW: You didn't scare me off, I was finding the discussion stressful but I also had work to get done, so had to take some time off. I don't think we're going to get far with the discussion, and I certainly didn't mean to make you feel unappreciated. You're now saying you accept the existence of limits to what people can do, which is a step forward on what you seemed to be saying before.

As to how much time I've got – I work irregular hours, so lots of time means too little work coming in (and I'll disappear as quickly as I appear). So really no need to be jealous. I would have considered looking up your other posts before replying to be cyberstalking BTW. I get spooked if someone does this to me, as it can be a sign they're overinvested in the discussion, and trying to track me down (which unpleasant people have tried, and thankfully failed, to do a couple of times).

One thing I really feel I need to reply on:

“I get really frustrated with the assumption that seems to underlie some posts that just because someone isn't AS, they get to coast through life”

I'm not trying to say NT people don't suffer, or even suffer as much as AS people on occasion, just that the specificity of AS suffering is different. For many of us (not everyone) with AS, it's a situation where a normal or low workload may have us feeling the way you're feeling now. Some of us will be functioning on a full night's sleep, on the same level you / whoever you're referring to is on six hours. It's possible your suffering is greater, but the bar is higher so to speak.

Let's put it this way: if each of us has a coping threshold of 100, an AS person will start at a base of 50 (a lot of the latent capability is taken up with stimulus processing and anxiety), and be pushed towards the threshold in leaps of both normal size (task is as difficult for AS as NT person = +1) and of enlarged size (more difficult than usual = +2 or +3; serious sensory overload = +30 or +50). Relief activities will have to be correspondingly greater to compensate, and taking on stressful activities will be correspondingly more risky. An NT person starts at a base of (say) 20, and mostly gets pushed up in increments of +1 (except if a traumatic event occurs). Now, it's quite possible in principle that an AS person who has an easy day, avoids sensory overstimulation and stress, and finds their job or studies easy / is not working that day might end up at (say) 70, whereas a NT person who is constantly overworked, bullied and stressed will finish the day at 90+. OP seemed to me to be at 90+ when writing, and you indicate that you're at 90+ from what you're saying. But the thing is, you got there by different routes. An AS person can end up at 90+ (where you are now) by exposure to everyday situations and tasks. A NT person can only end up at 90+ by taking on huge amounts of stressful activity. In effect, an NT person has to build up all the way from 20 to 90 in 1-point increments, adding 70 stressors to their base-level. An AS person might go from 50 to 90 through (say) 15 normal stressors and 10 more-difficult ones, or through 15 very difficult ones, or through a few normal stressors and one big sensory overload. So the fact that you're saying, “I can be at 90+ too”, is strictly true but misses the point about the difficulties. The problem is that an AS person can bear as much stress as you do and still be considered to be a moocher, or to be avoiding things they can in principle do (they aren't impossible – they just add impossibly large stress increments when taken together). Because an AS person can be taking on a fraction of the stress you are, and still be as stressed or more stressed. So if an AS person actually took on your workload, they'd reach the threshold of 100 and break down a fraction of the way through. Nobody should be pushed into the 90+ bracket, AS or NT, but the problem is rather different in each case.

League_Girl:

“Sounds PC”

What's wrong with PC? I'd much rather we say “person with a disability” instead of “cripple”, that's PC as well.

“Unless she thinks living for free is stealing or free of charge”

Words in NT usage often show slippage over similar/related cases. In this case, the core meaning is “beggar, someone who literally asks for things for free” (literal dictionary meaning), the extended meaning is “deliberate free-rider” (slang meaning), the stretched meaning is “any dependent person” (extended use of slang meaning based on unsympathetic reading of situations).

“I thought animal was a sexual term or a term for someone who is wild or partying”

It can mean that as well. In that case it's a compliment. Most often I've heard it used as in: “s/he turned into an animal and started attacking people” or something like that. In which case it's very much an insult. Both uses are rather strange, because animals don't spend much time having sex, and don't really engage in inexplicable aggression either.

“But is that thought really a bad thing? No one has ever gotten mad at me or upset or offended I have said some people don't grow up until they have kids or are in their late twenties and people have told me some people never grow up”

Usually these kinds of things aren't taken as offensive if they're not directed at a particular person. So saying “some people never grow up” isn't rude but saying “oh, grow up!” might be taken as rude. Also, some people won't act offended when they are, because the comment, although insulting, is also socially widespread enough to be unexceptional. I think this claim would be offensive to a lot of people who choose never to have children or are unable to for economic reasons for example, and to people who (because of situational reasons) end up dependent. Since people feel bad they're not working or are staying rent-free or whatever, people will usually not remind them of the fact and will tiptoe around it.

And yeh, I think you're right, your mother has old-fashioned views which are not necessarily widespread today, outside a certain milieu. But you'll also find these kinds of things vary with social group, and there's a lot of old-fashioned people about so to speak. The sex thing for example, it's not the done thing in middle-class settings to talk about sex at all, but among young people in certain subcultures it's almost obligatory. It's a bit the same with the “not grown-up” thing, I think in certain traditionalist social groups of your mother's generation and among people who are married with children, this might be a normal thing to say, but among younger people and more open-minded people, it would be considered judgemental and hence a bit offensive, especially if you actually said it to someone who wasn't grown-up by this definition (not having children or getting married is considered a legitimate lifestyle choice, having a low income or no income is considered an unfortunate situation – neither connoting immaturity). Most of my friends who are in this kind of situation (i.e. precarity of various kinds) would be very offended if I made any suggestion that they weren't fully grown-up.

“I have found out dumb means you can't talk and stupid means low intelligence and imbecile also means low IQ and so on... word definitions change but the original meaning stays in the dictionary”

That's why slang dictionaries like Urban Dictionary are so useful. Also, a modern dictionary should be updated to include the modern use as well as the original use. Sometimes the original use will be listed as “archaic”. Nobody has used idiot, imbecile or moron in the technical sense for decades at least, though I read once that “idiot-savant” was used as a (supposedly value-neutral) term for autistic-savants (low-functioning autistic people with savant skills) in the not-too-distant past. These kinds of terms (related to learning difficulties, and some other stigmatised groups) seem to go through constant changes because they're appropriated as insults. For instance, “spastic” originally meant “a person who has spasms”, but it's stopped being used because people started using “spastic” as an insult for someone who is viewed as incompetent. The Spastic Society renamed itself as Scope, but now “scoper” has become an insult as well, so it will probably change again.

Azurecrayon/League_Girl:

“paraplegic individuls and the elderly are not generally considered moochers as they are not able bodied. but an able bodied adult living with relatives and not working or contributing in other ways can indeed be considered a moocher”

It's pretty arbitrary to draw that kind of division between physical disabilities and other kinds of disabilities.

A more neutral definition might be something like: “someone who receives goods or services from others without making the corresponding contribution they could reasonably be expected to make”. But the question of what expectation is 'reasonable' in what circumstances, and what reasons count as exceptions or mitigating circumstances, will be very much contested. If you suggested in my social milieu that someone with (say) clinical depression was a moocher or similar (e.g. scrounger, layabout, free-rider), this would be taken as offensive not only by disability rights groups, but also by mainstream mental health charities, therapists, and the more tolerant end of public opinion, and it's the kind of thing one would be “called on” if one said it in daily conversation. Of course there's also the other end of public opinion who are very ready to use such labels, but they're considered offensive by anyone who understands the issues involved. Even if one thinks someone should put in more effort or contribute more, one wouldn't say it in those kinds of terms unless being downright aggressive.

I think interpersonal/intergroup differences would determine which (if any) of the situations you describe would be termed 'mooching', e.g. whether cleaning up after yourself is sufficient contribution to housework, and whether housework without rent is sufficient. People will actually have arguments about these things, along the lines of “you need to stop mooching” - “I'm not mooching, I can't work till the car is fixed, and I do lots of work around the house”. If you watch certain daytime TV shows, you'll doubtless have seen prolonged versions of such disagreements, in rather more aggressive tone and with bleeps inserted.

As Psychohist has said, it does imply a value judgement, so if you didn't mean to say that OP was a bad person, you were misusing the term.

Aspie1968, there is no progress in my understanding because I am already well tuned into the concept of which you speak. That you ever took me otherwise means to me that you misunderstood what I wrote and why I wrote it. It's pretty obvious if you read me in other threads.

Approaching parents int the way you've approached me will send them running for the hills most of the time. We've already got a world full of strangers ready to impart their perceived wisdom, and it's shear survival to tune it out, because it usually is wrong for the person or circumstance, its contradictory and it's constant. You don't know me but act like you do. I have no patience for it. Parents don't need to be judged anymore than kids do, and yet the whole world thinks they have the right to do just that. And you just did it again.

I appreciate your willingness to engage, but the tone and approach need some work, and the assumptions about the people you are speaking to have got to go.

I didn't make any assumptions about the OP. I read the words and it was in those words that I thought I saw the conflict I addressed. My track record for getting it right isn't perfect, but it is amazingly good, or I wouldn't take the risks I sometimes take in a post. I took a risk in this one, I admit that, and challenged the poster to consider what their limitations are or aren't. There are times in life when the answer you need isn't the one you want. If it was the right thing for this poster at this time ... I think the jury is still out. I'm glad you want to stick up for her, but don't take it out on those who disagree (there are times for that, but this isn't one). None of us know the story; we're just providing the menu from which she'll pick the message that is meant to click.

I'm not making random assumptions. Very often, I see aspects of the unconscious underpinnings of a discourse which the person using the discourse cannot see, and the fact that these underpinnings are invisible to you does not mean they are not there. You don't seem to want to admit that you're seeing from within a particular frame (and not just seeing "reality" as it is), so of course you're resistant to being challenged about the frame. You dislike aspects of how I argue (did you notice that you expressed this in a way which speaks down to me again?), and I also dislike aspects of how you argue (especially your persistent use of "reality" or "life" when you should be saying "in my worldview" or "in the dominant system", and your assumption that you know what others 'need', separately from their own perception). You seem to want to assert self-presence and authority, which makes a horizontal dialogue impossible in advance, especially with someone who doesn't share your assumptions. You are very resistant to questioning your own epistemological privilege, and I'm not going to submit to your assertions as to what interpretive methodology I should use, so I guess we're at a dead end.

what difference does it make what form the suffering takes? there is this thing that happens to people who undergo trials, which is pretty much everyone; we only have our own experience to draw on. so when my son was in the hospital nicu for 3 weeks and spent the first two weeks on a respirator unable to be held, i didnt go in there every day and breathe a sigh of relief that he wasnt as bad off as the 2 lb preemies in there for 5 months. someone else's greater suffering doesnt make my suffering any less, my suffering is all i know, and if this experience is the worst ive gone through, then that is how its going to feel to me. i suppose someone should have told those other mothers that they should be happy that at least their babies survived when other babies didnt, would that have reduced their suffering?

but wow, "on occasion" non-autistics might suffer as much as AS people. how magnanimous of you to allow us that. again, there is that undertone of non-autistics having it easier than autistics for every other time other than "on occasion". bull****. there are countless other impairments, neuroses, and personality quirks that can equal or surpass those issues encountered with autism on more than just an occasional basis, not to mention the crap life likes to throw at you to complicate things.



no one drew a division between physical and other disabilities, that is a false assumption you are making. i used those two groups in my comment, paraplegics and the elderly, because YOU used those two groups as people who arent expected to contribute. the elderly are certainly not restricted to only physical ailments, age often brings with it mental ailments as well. going back to the dictionary, "able bodied" means being of sound body, and "sound" means free from injury, disease, flaw, defect, or decay. therefore, using the term able bodied does not rule out neurological impairment, and since the groups identified were supplied by you, no inference can be made that any evil NT is being ableist and drawing arbitrary lines to imply that those with neurological impairments are not truly disabled or negatively affected by their condition.


this whole discourse boils down to someone coming onto a parenting forum and saying they want to tell their mom to fark off. their mom, who for 20 some years has provided shelter, clothing, covered all needs and expenses, cooks, cleans, and raised a child, and the child wants to tell her to fark off for interrupting a video game. even being a forum on an autism board, where we all know video games are often vital parts of the decompression process, that isnt going to go over so well. i thought the other parents were being pretty kind, because my first inclination, and the reason i didnt post in the first few pages, was to say "suck it up or move out. its your mom's house."



again i say, move out. if someone is able to acknowledge that their problems are their own and not the responsibility of their mother, and wants to actively prevent their mother from participating in their life decisions, then that person is capable enough to live without said mother.

yes, quite a sensitive topic for me. could just be that i am under a lot of stress and therefore super sensitive. i am on antibiotics and an inhaler for pneumonia, got a stern talking to yesterday from the doc because i have been off my meds and my BP is 148/120 and she is concerned i am going to have a stroke. every day i have to work with my coworker who has been trying to get me fired for over a year, and my job provides my housing and utilities so losing it would mean losing those as well. thats compounded by the fact that my SO just lost the last of the work he was doing, because of deficits caused by autism, so i am the sole support of our family of 5. my boss is coming into town today and will probably again ask to violate my civil rights and want to come into my home without the required legal notice, which i refuse to let him do because it causes severe anxiety for my SO to have someone in the house, despite the fact that its putting me in a poor position with my boss. and this week i found out that the quarter of a million dollar business contract my sister just secured means absolutely nothing for me and my family, because she took the business idea we had developed and started the business with her girlfriend instead and now its their business and i have no stake in it.

being the introverted geek that i am with no social life and few outside interests, i would really like to play WoW to relax (i have an 83 hunter, 83 mage, 82 druid, and 79 dk plus several in the lvl 20-30 range) but with my job and family, i am constantly interrupted and usually go up to a week without having the time to play. sometimes i wish i could tell my job and family to fark off and leave me alone to relax, but a mom with responsibilities cant act like that.

but hey, at least i am not AS, so i guess my life is all peachy-keen =P (<----humor, for those like the 3 in my house who dont get it and assume everything i say is a personal insult)

Aspie1968' all you had to say was "I disagree" and then post your support. Instead, you made a choice to name names and attack the parents. If you don't understand how counterproductive that is on a parenting board, then you shouldn't be on the parenting board. I haven't spent hundreds of hours telling parents to be patient and understanding of their kids so you can come in here and tell me I've got some different underlying assumption.

Again, you've done a wonderful job. C'mon Aspie1968, give the parents that are on here a break especially DW_a_Mom and azurecrayon. They're doing the best that they can. The parents are going through a lot of nonsense themselves. Can't we work with the parents instead of against them? It's an excellent opportunity. We aspies are not gods and we don't know everything my friend. I believe this is partly what is causing our problems with people. I'm sorry but my personal opinion aspie1968 is you're being a douchebag right now to people who do not deserve it.

cubedemon6073
Thank you!

Here are the sentences I found that used these terms you say I use "persistently":

But to say there are no jobs and give up ... it's not an option unless you are disabled. Like it or not, that is real life and all the understanding in the world won't change it.
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Some day the safety net goes away and there is NO ONE to understand and bend for you. Unless you get yourself qualified as disabled. It's a reality every adult has to accept and have a plan for.

Tell me exactly where I can go live and not have these concepts apply, because I am quite ready to seriously consider such a move.


---

Beyond that, I went back and read the thread and my participation in it. There were a few things I should have said differently or not at all and other posters pointed those out fairly quickly and acceptably. I carefully read those points and posted a few things to bring things more in line (ie me to them). Problem solved, if you ask me. And then you jump in ... and you persistently feel the need to psychoanalyze me and give me motives and thoughts that I know I do not have and that, in fact, I have worked for YEARS here to gently change in other parents. You post in the manner of someone who has an agenda, and you don't care who you run over in the process of making that agenda happen. If that is the case, take it somewhere else. We've gotten to a place on this board where we've been able to mold a whole new way for parents to deal with their AS kids that is probably exactly what you would hope for, but a key part of that has been to avoid attacking the parents, even when they come on and post (what we feel is) outrageous cure-a-bie stuff. You can't influence someone you can't talk to, and no one needs an arm chair psychologist taking a few of their sentences and then writing paragraphs on their possible psychological motives. If you want to use those thoughts to help you form your answers, fine, there may be times it is useful, but to POST them? Nothing good comes from that. And, no, I am not saying you are right in any of those analyses. I can't suggest you don't make them, but I will suggest you shouldn't have the gall to post them.

I know it probably would be better if I just held my tongue on all of that, but your posts and my mood won't let me.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 07 Apr 2011, 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think many of the parents can equally be said to be attacking the original poster in this thread.

One of the issues here is that the original post doesn't ask a parenting question. However, the appropriate response for parents who disagree with the original poster's world view should perhaps have been to request the topic be moved, rather than responding. If they respond, they can hardly complain when their responses are criticized.

This thread should be in the haven if the OP didn't want advice and only wanted to hear what she wanted to hear. I have noticed when people tell the person they didn't want to hear, the people are seen as attackers. I honestly don't think aspie1968 attacked anyone.

What's wrong with PC? I think people are getting too offended easily these days so I think it's silly to dumb down the words just so they won't get easily offended. What's wrong with "crippled?" Also sometimes being PC can do damage like in the parenting magazines, they are now calling tantrums meltdowns now. I think that could do damage to the autistic community and to parents of kids who have autism. What is going to happen when someone says they are having a meltdown? People are going to think they mean tantrum. Same as if a parent says her autistic child is having a meltdown, people are going to think the kid is having a tantrum.
Yes I am aware even NT kids can have a meltdown and so can grown ups. What is our world coming too now?

I think you were one of the ones that challenged a few things I wrote early on well.

My thinking at the time ... she posted it here because she wanted parents to see her side, but it seemed she was also perhaps subconsciously asking parents to tell her why her mom would do what she does. A rant, but by coming here, instead of a different board ... maybe there was more to it. I felt at the time and still feel that she made her mom actually sound wishy washy, like a woman grasping for a way to communicate effectively with her child but unable to. Accepting of who the child is but unsure how far to push, while feeling something has to give. In the daughter's voice I also heard all the frustrated parents who have posted trying to reach their in transition young adults, and getting frustrated with how frozen in time those kids seem to be getting, but afraid of pushing too hard least it backfire.

As for the rest of what I originally put in this post ... I'm removing it. Its just another circle in the same worn out discussion. The truth is I APOLOGIZED to Snivy pages and pages ago for what I misread, and took on too strong, and so I don't understand why the rest of this discussion even exits.

For the record, WOW is a highly addictive game. If this had been an NT young adult I would have told them in no uncertain terms that it was time to fish or cut bait, and that you absolutely don't have a right to sit in your parent's home and enjoy un-interrupted hours long spells of WOW. Given that poster is AS and I know the game is part of what she uses to self calm, I didn't bring any of that into the post, I didn't feel it was appropriate. Still, I know first hand how destructive a computer addiction can be since I've got that issue myself. IF, a big "if," that is part of the issue, she will need to decide it for herself.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 07 Apr 2011, 3:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Those posts provided nasty little psychoanalytical stereotypical profiles of the parents here and basically NT's everywhere. The anti-NT bias is intense. THOSE paragraphs are what have me blowing steam. The attack may not have been direct and obvious, but it very much existed.

I have a lot easier time understanding your struggle with all the PC language. I'm not going to hold it against you if you say something wrong because I know you well enough to "get" what you meant, hopefully, more often than not. You and I are very different people, but that is what keeps the world interesting, right?

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 07 Apr 2011, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you for saying this. I've been really second guessing myself and obviously having trouble sitting on my hands as much as I should have.