Voilent attack at daycare...

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I heard something disturbing when I went down to visit my girlfriend and Billy, her 10 year old Aspie son. The other day at Daycare, he wasn't getting his way with a group of kids playing video games, and he attacked a 7 year old and started to choke him. Fortunately, one of the aids pulled him off before any damage could be done.

His excuse, which is ALWAYS his excuse is "I couldn't help it! It's not my fault!" Which as far as I'm concerned is a complete lie and a cop-out to try to avoid punishment. Meltdowns can't be helped. I understand that. Acting violently towards someone else when one doesn't get one's way is just brattiness. When punishment is dealt out, usually a loss of privileges, it is followed by an every increasing cry of "But I'm SORRY!! !" and he can't understand why the punishment is being given out after he says "I'm sorry".

We are less than two months away from moving in together. On Thursday, we have an appointment to tour one of the few daycare's in the area in which we are going to live. He has been in his current daycare all his life, so they are tolerant of his infrequent outbursts. I worry, however, that if this new behavior of violent outbursts continue, he will be thrown out of this new daycare.

When explaining to him what this would mean to the family, he was told that mom would have to quit her job in order to watch him in the summer. His response was "So? I'll just sit in my room and play video games all day!" Well, mom got very upset at this attitude, and told him that no, he wouldn't be allowed to play video games at all if his behavior caused her to have to quit her job. She also said she would get rid of Rexie. Rexie is a stuffed dinosaur that he has had for four years and is his most prized possession. It is a nasty snot, drool, and funk encrusted thing that makes my skin crawl by its sheer nastiness (sorry, OCD). His response was "But I LOVE Rexie!! !" Again, no consideration for the events leading up to losing Rexie.

I'm really trying to get through to him the idea of cause and effect, actions and consequences, but he is doing everything in his power to resist. His idea of punishment seems similar to me as a cat: There is no reason for him to ever be punished, and anything you do that you call punishment is just you being mean to him.

Any advice on how to get these ideas through to him would be greatly appreciated. Also, to help him to understand that the world doesn't revolve around him.

...although once we move in together, I'm inclined to let him believe what he wants, but let the punishment stand and let him figure it out on his own (as was done to me), and have further outbursts afterward lead to further punishment.

Maybe frame things as an inevitable, unemotional consequence rather than as an angry punishment. His current line of reasoning seems to be, "Aspergers made me do it so you shouldn't be angry and punish me". So don't be angry and punish him. Instead, state calmly and in advance that consequence B will always result from behaviour A. Remove parental anger from the consequence (easier said than done!!) and make it something more like an Inevitable Law of Nature. Don't start yelling at him when he wails "it's not my fault, I have Aspergers" after consequence B is enacted because of behaviour A. Just reiterate that if A happens, then B happens.

Make it a moot point whether he perceives it as his fault or not. If he thinks it's not his fault, that's ok. But B will still happen. And B will continue to happen until A stops happening. Then make the cessation of A a mutual goal. You don't want it to happen, he doesn't want it to happen. What strategies can you come up with together to reach this mutual goal of A not happening so that B doesn't have to happen either? If he actually believes on some level that this is something that "just happens" rather than something he can control, then he may be open to brainstorming strategies to keep it from happening and regain control. Especially if he comes to realize that B will happen whether it is "his fault" or not.

This principle is actually cribbed from drug and alcohol rehab. The addict says "I can't control it". Yet privileges will be removed- such as a driver's license- whether the addict can control it or not. What strategies can help the addict not do this thing which has an inevitable consequence? Rehab! Rehab doesn't care if you "meant to" or not. You learn to control the thing lest you get the inevitable consequences. And you work together to control it.

Last edited by Janissy on 07 Apr 2010, 10:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

hm, maybe a change of punishment: for example instead loss of privileges, do a chore or time-out or push-ups. Something that can follow immediately after the deed so he can connect crime-punishment. It would be ideal to make somethin that makes up to the damaged party.

I feel your pain, Jimbeaux. This impulsive type of behavior is very hard to control. In my experience teaching consequences to my son has been a long, long process built on babysteps and consistency through many years. I resolved myself awhile ago that there is no short-term way to teach this, you've got to be in it for the long haul. My advice is, assume the role of teacher: Your role in this child's life is to teach him that every thought and action has consequences, both good and bad. I would assume that he won't/cannot figure these things out on his own until he is much more mature (like, adult mature). Therefore, he needs a coach/teacher. I am constantly explaining this to my son, and the abreviated version sounds something like this:

"You did a,b,c behavior which is wrong for x,y,z reasons, and my job is to teach you that there are consequences for the things you do. The consequences in this case are i,j,k. I understand you think the consequences are not fair, but that is also part of my lesson to you, that life is not fair. If you don't like what you are hearing, use your imagination and pretend you are me, and what the consequences would be for me if I did a,b,c behavior, or failed to show up for work, etc."

I think more communication is better in this regard. The child will learn. I think it is important that the consequences are explained up front, before the behavior happens, and that you follow through on them, as inconvenient as it may be. It would be worse to threaten with consequences, and then not implement them. Consistency above all else. This, and provide balance with good consequences for good behaviors, with the appropriate explanations. Best of luck man

I first want to mention that it seems like learning consequences is just a lot harder for certain people, particularly when there is a problem with impulse control. For this reason it seems imperative to me that you take the emotions out of the situations (for yourself and your DS). Situations go best at our house when I don't get angry. This is hard. But it's hard for her to process her own emotions, pile on mine and that's a situation that is going to go wrong.

There's a story I shared with a friend about my own daughter's impaired understanding of consequences. Happened the first time she had hot chocolate at about four or five. It was hot....I explained it was hot. She'd need to blow or I could blow ("I can do it"--always the answer I got then). She blew once then took a hearty sip. OWWWWW....crying...burnt tongue. "It's hot...you really need to blow or I can." she blew once or twice hearty sip...OWWWW...that went on for a long time. It was odd to me that each lesson didn't do the job of teaching her that she needed to wait/blow/wait...for it to cool down. It's kind of a funny story now, but there have been lots of times like this in her life when you think an object lesson/natural consequence should do it and it doesn't.

I agree with you in a way. One of the things our psychologist said after testing was that Madison (my daughter) is a very concrete thinker. She doesn't abstract well. Therefor threats don't really work for her. She does better with direct consequences, not a lot of warnings. I think it's wrong to threaten to take away a beloved stuffed animal. That doesn't seem to fit with anything that's happening. If you are explaining about 'quitting your job,' it has to be concrete. Like there was a time when I was having to visit my daughter's school...A LOT. I explained to her that when I had to do this, I couldn't work. If I couldn't work, I couldn't support us. If I couldn't support us...she wouldn't be able to do xyz....basically price tag logic. She does well with math...concrete! The price tag is I can't buy you this. We can't pay for that.

But keep in mind to that understanding consequences is going to take longer in the first place. My daughter avoided responsibility for things WAY before we knew she had AS or ADHD. It's actually a trait of ADHD/AS...but we didn't know. I just knew it was hard for her to accept responsibility. Because in her eyes, there was a trigger, and the trigger caused the problem, not her. In her limited way of understanding her own emotional problems, that's true. The trigger did cause the problem. So helping him understand his triggers might be really helpful....giving him insight into that, rather than what punishment will follow. My daughter doesn't deal with TALK of punishment well at all. If you tell her of a punishment, it's like she will keep pushing until she gets the punishment. It doesn't work like with 'regular' kids. When we've come to a point where I'm proposing punishment/threatening, she can't seem to pull back and will just go for broke.

What has helped me best is to remove myself from the emotionally charged situation. Once it isn't charged anymore, then I let her know what will happen now. That has worked best.

The one time I did use a threat she had begun mistreating our dog, who she really really loves. I explained to her that if she was going to yell at him because she's mad, or wack at him in any way....I would have no choice BUT to take him back to the pound. I had to explain that more than once, in a non-threatening...concrete...way. but after the second or third time, it stopped, and now she treats him very well...avoiding him (as a trigger) when she's angry.

I hope this makes sense. Part of AS is seeing the world revolve around ones/self. It's one of the traits. While my daughter has improved over time, she is still WAY more self centered than her peers. Do some reading or research on AS...that might be really helpful for you to sort of move beyond crime/punishment into a more supportive role with your step? child?

What has worked best for me is breaking down every element of the day that led up to the outburst, and helping my son see how the stress was building up, to where he over- reacted to something that wasn't that big a deal. The goal, for him, is to learn to emotionally self-manage every small step of the way, so that he isn't IN the position of having to exert self-control at a moment when it is too difficult for him. His learning not to pretend to slide off the little stuff, and immediately seek self-mitigation, has been HUGE.

Perfect? No. He still see things in a very self-centered and self-defensive way. We keep working on it.

I also keep him out of common situations that seem to interfere with his self-control. I do not allow him to play the common chase and wrestling games, because he does not know when to stop. But it gets sooooo hard for other kids to take me seriously. A friend of my daughter's will start playing some physical game on my son. My son asks the child to stop. The child thinks that is part of the game, and continues harassing my son. My son tries again. Child does not listen. A couple of rounds of this and my son looses control and I've got my daughter telling me my son attacked her friend. This after I warn EVERY SINGLE TIME our guests to LEAVE HIM ALONE. WHY can't they DO that? Sure, my son is absolutely responsible for his behavior, but so are the other kids, and I've observed it often enough to know that kids seem to love goading on the kid who has self-control issues, and that isn't fair, and it is a factor that needs to be worked on as well.

Your post reminded me so much of what my son was like in preschool. He was often bursting out like that. It stopped, just like that, with the K daycare. Why? The K daycare was PROACTIVE in keeping my son out of situations with other children that he would not be able to control. They gave him an interesting but very calm afternoon, and he responded really really well to it.

So don't forget to play both sides: do look at what is going on to prompt the child. Being understanding is not the same as knowing how to handle it, and while my son's preschool was understanding enough to never kick him out, it also was absolutely the wrong place for him and I didn't realize that until I saw how he was somewhere else. That fear of not being able to keep the child in care is 100% deju vu for me, and I remember the extreme stress of it, but I've since learned that it led me in the wrong direction, and I caution you not to allow that here. In the right situation, in an environment that meets your step sons needs and with teachers who not only tolerate quirks but know how to inspire and channel unique children, the step son will thrive. You could find this move to be a gift.

Others have offered some very practical advice so I won't reiterate it, but I do feel the need to say that I cringe when I hear your tone which sounds a bit ... well... venemous toward this child. I know you are probably feeling a bit angry or annoyed but... the only advice I would like to offer in addition to what others have said, is that you really need to start from a place of compassion, not retribution, if you want your discipline to be effective. You need to understand that as someone on the spectrum, this boy's brain works in a fundamentally different way. The biggest parenting lesson I've learned as the mother of a child with Autism, is that conventional discipline methods nearly always fail, and I need to be more proactive, and creative, with methods that work for the spectrum.

If you have not read any books about kids on the spectrum I would strongly, strongly recommend that you do. If you intend to have a hand in any of the decisions or discipline for this child, you owe it to him to educate yourself beforehand. There is a thread here that offers a one-stop shop for book recommendations on ASD.

I do not have venom towards Billy. First off, I am male. We communicate differently than women. Don't read too much into what I am saying, as men don't convey feelings in their writing as much as facts in most cases, especially with me. Like the old saying goes: If a woman can't figure out a man, she is likely thinking too hard.

Second, I am frustrated by his attitude of nothing ever being his fault, which is an attitude that has been fostered by his grandparents for his entire life. I generally relate to Billy very well, and love him as if he was my own. We have hours of fun together every weekend, and I see him as a huge bonus to winning the hand of his wonderful mother, not as a burden I have to put up with. But when I take time to post here, I am usually posting about a problem, and limit my postings to the frustrations of the problem I am running into, which have in the past been misinterpreted as me being some controlling, overbearing dictator. But it is just that: A misinterpretation. When it comes to discipline for Billy in our relationship, I am the level headed logical one who will talk through things with him, and his mom, one of the most loving, wonderful, caring mothers I have ever seen, is the one who tends to get in shouting matches with him, as he knows how to push her buttons. When he pushes my buttons, I come here or other places to get advice before reacting, as I do not want to react out of emotion. I want to react strategically in a way that will ultimately benefit him.

My main concern is that I want him to learn how to adapt to the world, rather than his current expectation of the world adapting to him. Because the cold hard fact is that no matter how much people complain that it is unfair, the world will not adapt to him. If anything were to happen to his mother and me, what would happen to him if I did him the disservice of not preparing him?

I have done extensive reading about Asperger's, but sometimes the books just don't have the answers. You need to interact with people who have walked the path.

I think you've come a long way with the child, for the record, and I think you will make a wonderful family. But, not everyone has been reading here as long as I have.

As for the part I quoted above, I think you know this, but I'm posting a reminder: a big part of learning to adapt to the world will be knowing which situations to avoid. It is really, really important to control contact so as to mitigate stress as much as possible. Which means, my son will only go shopping if he's really calm to start with, because it's stressful. He will stay home alone (he's old enough) instead of going to a movie theatre. If he gets dragged to an amusement park, he will carefully schedule his day to avoid any more stress than needed. And so on. They have to learn for themselves how different situations affect them, and then avoid, when possible, the worst ones. They have to become aware of their own stress levels to be able say, "I cannot handle that situation right now." A statement which we absolutely have to respect. They have to develop mitigation plans. It starts by us guiding them through, and it ends by them making their own choices. My son knows that I expect him to learn this, and he considers it a reasonable expectation, even if execution remains imperfect at that this point in his life. I have to remember that he doesn't like stressing out and misbehaving anymore than I like seeing him do it, and often a gentle reminder of that is all it takes. Sometimes he gets a wacked out idea, and all I have to do is ask, "so, how did that work for you?" He figures it out. Will he ever see things the way I do? No. But he is learning to follow my advice because it works, and he knows he ends up happier.

I guess that he must understand that others also have feelings and needs. I read that as part of being responsible, children need to respect and show concern for the well-being of other people. Compassion is developed by trying to see things from the point of view of others, and learning that their feelings resemble our own. I guess that learning these things might be a little difficult for a child with AS but I guess thay you should try teaching him these things (eg. that mommy will be sad if she has to quit the job). But also the responsibility might be too big for him to handle. Maybe reading stories that illustrate what you are trying to teach him (being nice to other people, respect, responsibility, consequences) will help him further understand this themes. Then after the stories discuss with him the points you´re trying to make. Also remember to praise him when he behaves well at the daycare.

DW_a_mom, if you have any tips or advice on how you are teaching your son this, I would be really interested/appreciative. This is also a huge stumbling block for our sons.

You go through the long, slow process of everything that happened in the day, and how he felt about it, what he might have felt about it, and what options were available at the time. You often have to go further back than the child will, because they missread so many events, and they need to see how the event unfolded from someone else's perspective before they can understand how to manage it properly. I don't know how easy it is for all AS kids to learn, and sometimes I'm still surprised by a totally clueless day on my son's part. It has to be a never ending conversation because, long run, the child has to do it for himself.

All of which assumes, of course, that you have a talker. My AS child loves to talk, even if he doesn't like to talk about what I want him to talk about.

Thanks for the background info Jimbeaux. It helps to have a context when interpreting tone.

double post

Last edited by psychohist on 07 Apr 2010, 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Your read sounds exactly correct here. I would note that lack of responsibility is not something that's special to aspies or auties; it's something that can be taught to any kid, and it sounds like this kid has learned it. Hopefully you can help him learn a sense of responsibility instead.


I think this is expecting him to understand more than can be expected from a 10 year old. Kids don't understand what a big deal a parent's having to quit a job can be.

Can Rexie be washed?


That sounds like a good approach to me for incidents like you allude to in the day care. I wouldn't punish all meltdowns, though.

Wow - that's a pretty severe reaction. To actually reach out, grab another kid's throat and choke them... Maybe it's just me and I'll probably win the title for worst 'Mom in the World' - but I doubt I'd think of push-ups or talking about what led up to the event allll day long as a way to deal with something like that. Using their AS and their 'inability' to control themselves as an excuse is BS when it comes to getting THAT violent.

Take away his video games until he can explain to you why what he did was wrong. And then tell you what he should do instead of throttling another kid. Outline the behaviors you expect from him (start small - work up to new things as he needs them). Write it down in a simple enough form for him to understand. No hitting other people. When you set a rule, talk about the rule, ask him for input (why this is a rule, why we don't it, why we don't want someone doing it to us).

If a child has the comprehension to understand and be upset when something happens to them - or how bad they feel if their video game is being taken away - then they have the comprehension to understand right from wrong and they can make appropriate choices. It's not easy to admit this - especially when you have a kid you know doesn't think like you do - but that's no reason to allow bad behavior. When my duaghter was 9-10 years old she'd get mad at her brother - go into his room and break his toy (whatever one was his absolute favorite at the time) - "He made me sooooo mad and I just couldn't stop myself." Umm sure ya couldn't. Did ya think about how you brother might feel? Blank stare. Okay - go get me your (whatever her toy of the moment was) and a hammer. Then I'd break it. Talk about an upset child. But guess what - she KNEW how it felt to have someone do it to her. Only took two times to get her to think about breaking his stuff before she did it. Instead she'd come and tell me why she was upset with him and we'd figure out how to deal with it without making a bad choice. Yeah it was harsh. But sometimes you have to be that way. Coddle a kid that is escalating - and doing violent things and you will have a monster on your hands in the future. What are you going to do when the police knock on your door because your kid never learned to control his behavior? Better yet - put yourself in the shoes of the parent of the kid your child decides to take out his anger/frustration on.

I'm going to get fried for my reply - but I really don't find that excusing behaviors because a child has Asperger's or is on the spectrum is the way to go. If anything - you have to be more vigilant about teaching them to respond appropriately in a situation inwhich they are angry.