Perfectionism and Anger

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My son is a perfectionist. It is to the point that he does not want to do anything unless he is perfect at it. If he does something and he is not perfect he gets really angry. He's very hard on himself, and if he is in a competition and loses, he will take out the winner or the person he feels is responsible. I'll give you an example of something that happened this past weekend.

My son's in boy scouts and they had their soap box derby this Saturday. We were to make wooden cars, with certain criteria and we had a race with the whole pack (at least 100 kids). First there were den races, and the top 2 of the den races went to the final. Prior to this I pounded in my son's head that he was NOT going to win, so don't expect that. Well, he won 2nd place in his Den and went on to the finals. I was very proud that he was happy with second (which to him is losing). He gets mad if he isn't first so I of course praised him. Then we had to come back for the finals (mistake, and I kind of knew it). Well, he was last in all of the 4 races he was in during the final run. After he watched his car come in last the first time he got mad and kicked my husband between the legs. I took him in the hallway and before I addressed the kicking we talked about winning and not winning. I explained to him (as I have done a million of times) that even though he didn't win the final he did really good by winning second place. This was our first race and he did great. I try to explain when these things happen that mistakes and losing are not bad things, they are good things because they are part of learning. With every mistake we learn how to be better the next time. We can't be the best the first time we try something, that just doesn't happen. We have to practice, learn from our mistakes and make a better plan with this new information. During this all he would say is he's done with boy scouts. Before we left we talked about what we have learned and what we will do next year to make a faster car. None of this matters to him. He can't get past this moment. It's like I'm talking to a wall. I then made him apologize to his father for kicking him, and he refused. (we think he blames my husband because he was the one who helped him with the car) I had to make him apologize. Then he wants to leave, but we don't have the car. When the races were over we got the car, he then wanted to stay to see who won. He was OK at that time, but on the way out he cried about how he isn't good at anything. This morning he told me he had a bad weekend. I'm sure this is why because he carries things.

I wish he would understand this, but I think because he is so focused on being perfect that he really doesn't care what I say to him. He just doesn't buy it. I don't know how to deal with this, what to say to him or what to do.

Do I keep putting him in situations like this so he gets used to it, keep telling him that this is life (gently of course)? Do I avoid them, like not participating? Is this something that he's going to grow out of or is this going to get worse over time as things get more complicated. I tried working with a therapist but that was a disaster. I just don't know what to do.

Is there anyone who was like this as a child that could share their story? or anyone who can give me some advice on what to do? He is so smart and has so much potential but he limits himself and his experiences because of this. They even had to stop playing kickball in school because if someone tags him out he chases them down to punish them. I can get him to be a good sport when he loses sometimes, (usually with a threat to not play with him) but the perfectionism is part of everything he does. It's great that he gets perfect scores in school, but he is never going to be happy if he is this hard on himself.

Just a quick note, haven't read your whole message, but the headline caught my eye. I have just started reading "Asperger Syndrome and Anxiety" by (aspie author) Nick Dubin, and he discusses it in there. His meltdowns are very different from mine in that mine are not so much triggered by my need to control. He refers a lot to this perfectionism thing.

Perfectionism is an obstacle for me in other ways, particularly in time-wasting.

My NT (we think) daughter is the perfectionist in our family and I find it incredibly difficult to deal with. I honestly haven't solved it, either. I do ask her to think before she enters into a project about why she is entering into it, and about how she'll feel if it doesn't turn out how she wants. And I suggest that if she can't handle that, maybe she shouldn't start. Well, she usually starts anyway, assuring me she can handle it if it doesn't turn out, and then she usually can't, but at least I feel she made the choice to confront the issue. Other things, like homework, can't be avoided, and we talk a lot about "good enough" and the philosophy one of our neighbors goes by "90% - that's how you do it all. 90%." That woman accomplishes so much, and quite capably (but never perfectly, and no one cares), so I figure she's a good role model.

I think, in her, it comes from a deep insecurity. She needs to feel special. Not just loved, but loved THE MOST. And so on. If she had a single talent where she clearly rose above the rest, maybe it would satisfy that need but, unfortunately, while there is much she is good at, there isn't anything she is steller-high-above-the-rest at.

So we just keep talking. I give her lots of praise, and remind her constantly that 90% is good enough. And caution her before starting anyting competitive or likely to bring out her perfectionism that she HAS to be OK with something less BEFORE she starts.


PS - we did the pinewood derby thing, too. And my husband is an engineer, so my son won his den. In the county competition his cars never quite cracked the winner's circle, but came close. Some people really know how to make those cars, and SO much goes into it. It really is far more dad than son, which makes me wonder if its really the best activity, but the boys do love it. While my son had a hard time letting go of his assumption he would win, he isn't a perfectionist, so it wasn't as bad for us. With him, it's more about the assumption: after watching his car win race after race in the den, he assumed it would do the same elsewhere. Except, of course, it was now against other cars that had won race after race in their dens. So with AS, I think you've got the double whammy: the perfectionism, and whatever vision he's locked into his head that now hasn't come into being. I would make sure you've figured out the assumptions he's got, as well, to help him make them realistic.

My son will NOT accept that 90% is good enough, even if it's the best around but not perfect in his eyes. That just isn't good enough, but I keep trying. Fortunately, his den leader got trophies for all of the kids in the den for working hard on their cars because he has a son with AS and is in the same boat. He thinks the pinewood derby is too competitive for kids this young, and that is why he got the trophies for them. Unfortunately, my son loved the trophies and he was very happy with second, until he lost. Then that accomplishment went totally out the window. I wish he wouldn't have won at all, I think that would have been easier. I really wasn't ready for 2nd place in his den. We've never done this before. I put his trophy in my curio cabinet in the front with his car to show how much I was proud of how well he did. I think he would have handled it better if he didn't come in dead last, because I told him he wouldn't win because the kids who won are older, and have done this before and had more help from their parents. (which frankly, at age 8 it's all the parents anyway).

He wants to race go karts so badly. I told him that his behavior was exactly why I won't let him race, but honestly I don't think he can help how he feels and how he reacts (he's very impulsive). I didn't think the pinewood derby would go well and I would be dealing with this, but do I not let him participate in something I know will result in a meltdown, or my biggest concern...aggression? if it's not really necessary (like homework) He gets teeth grinding angry and he's upset for days. If I don't participate, is that too much sheltering?

I also think his is deep insecurity. He spills milk and runs to his room. I NEVER make that a big deal, it's an accident...he's still humiliated. He made a mistake.

This is so hard. I don't know what's worse, being bullied, being left out, or beating yourself up.

I have the perfectionist problem myself. You eventually learn to live with it, because whether you like it or not, its simply impossible to achieve perfection at everything you do. At anything, really. But I keep trying anyway, can't help myself. So you learn to come as close as possible and deal with the frustration of constant failure (as well as the obsessive compulsion to keep trying something until it works just right, to the neglect of sleep, food, other responsibilities, etc). And once in a while, something actually clicks and you hit the mark. Its rare, but those moments are oh so satisfying, they make up for all the eggs you've laid.

However, one thing I was trained very early not to do, is take out that frustration of failing on those around me. Its not right to blame people who have tried to help you when a plan doesn't come off as perfect. And to act out aggressively, or to behave in a way that makes those around you embarrassed on your behalf is simply not acceptable. If one can't have perfection, one must at the very least retain one's dignity. Its just tacky to show everyone around you how poorly you handle losing.

If you can't achieve perfection in the competition, you can at least keep perfect control of your sportsmanship. A week later, no one will remember who won (except the guy with the trophy), but everyone will remember who threw a tantrum because he didn't. Everybody may love a winner, but they like nice guys a lot longer.

[quote="Avengilante"]
However, one thing I was trained very early not to do, is take out that frustration of failing on those around me. Its not right to blame people who have tried to help you when a plan doesn't come off as perfect. And to act out aggressively, or to behave in a way that makes those around you embarrassed on your behalf is simply not acceptable. If one can't have perfection, one must at the very least retain one's dignity. Its just tacky to show everyone around you how poorly you handle losing.

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We work on sportsmanship all the time with him. Me, his school and his social skills therapist all together. I actually was congratulated one day on beating him in Mario Kart, and he shook my hand. One day he's good with it, the other day he isn't. It depends on whether or not you can threaten him. I won't play with him if he acts like this, nor will I allow anyone else too. I had to threaten to take away his trophy he did get in order to get him to apologize to his father, and I still had to hold him and demand he apologize in my very mad mommy voice. He just doesn't care when he's that mad, and nothing is ever his fault. ever. How can you learn anything when you have that belief? I think that's what makes it so hard to deal with. I even told him Saturday that it's OK to be mad, but he can't be kicking and hurting people. When I mention racing go karts, hurting the winner is exactly, and the only, reason I won't let him race. This is why I think he isn't receptive. Racing is his obsession. He can't do it if he acts like this.

Another issue is he doesn't have the determination to make it perfect. If it's not easily made perfect, he's not good at it and he quits. If only he would put that energy into figuring out how to do things better it could really work for him, but that's a totally different way of thinking.
I'm not giving up, but I am so worried that this anger is going to be his downfall. Thanks for listening

I once read the statement "anything worth doing is worth doing wrong." In my mind I combine that with the concept "We learn from our mistakes." Together it makes me feel that "If I ever want to do something perfectly, then I need to make enough mistakes first that I can learn enough to eventually do it perfectly." Reading over it, it sounds a bit confusing, but maybe you could talk over the general idea with your son to help him feel better. If he ever wants to be perfect at anything he is going to need to make mistakes first. Good luck. I hope that was more on the helpful side than the confusing side.

I'm a perfectionist too but I wasn't always. I think it has something to do with early childhood where no matter how hard I tried, nothing was good enough. My teachers would pick out the slightest mistake and get in my face about it.

I would look harder at how the AS need to have things go as expected is mixing with the perfectionism. Both my kids can deal with imperfect when they are ready for it, but not when they aren't. Have you asked your son what he thought would happen at the wider derby that day? Perhaps he expected 2nd again?

With my AS son, realistic expectations AND knowing what causes him stress are needed to prevent meltdowns. Your son didn't care what you had to say in that moment because he had gone into full meltdown mode, most likely. My NT daughter throws full blown tantrums, which are a little different, because I can bribe her out of them (an AS meltdown is too far out of the child's control). Figure out which you have for sure, first, if you haven't already.

Overall, and there are going to exceptions and nuances, my suggestion is this:

Shelter your son from things that are likely to set him into meltdown mode until you both have learned to recognize the build up signs and divert it. The only thing to do with meltdowns are to control and mitigate the environment.

Don't shelter your son from real life that might lead to a temper tantrum; he needs to learn to manage his expectations and accept the reality, and learn the real life consequences that flow from acting inappropriately. But he should make the choice going in: know what you are worried about, know what you expect, and know what the consequence will be if he can't manage his behavior.

Which is why you really, really need to know which you have: meltdown or tantrum.

My son has a huge need for things to go as expected so I know that has to be part of it. We talked a lot about him not winning at the derby, and I believe that if he would not have won at all he would have been upset, but not to the extent of a meltdown. That was probably why he was OK with second place. I knew I shouldn't have went back...but he wanted to. I told him he would lose and he made the choice. I think the problem with the second half is that his car came in last in all 3 of the races he watched and he didn't expect THAT. His dissapointment is understandable, his reaction was not acceptable.

I tell him all the time that mistakes are learning opportunities and that they are good things because they make you better by giving you information, and I gave him examples. That is why I made a point to tell him what we would do differently with the car next year. We have this conversation every time I try to prime him for something like this event, and sometimes just when it comes up, but he doesn't believe me, and he will tell me that. Losing and making mistakes to him are bad, and wrong and he will argue that point. It doesn't matter what I say, it's "bad". I also tell him it's OK to be mad, but you can't hurt someone because of it. He felt justified in kicking his father. If he does something by impulse he feels bad and blames it on his "life". ( "life" being the person inside him that controls him, that he cannot control ) but he didn't Saturday. He felt justified, and that is why he wouldn't apologize without me intervening to the extent that I did. It wasn't his "life" because it was intentional and his dad deserved it.

I never set a clear consequence going in, I just honed in on the not winning and handling it appropriately. That's a good idea. Maybe I can even do a PECS strip so he can see it and be reminded. Reward for good behavior, consequence for bad, Keep it that simple and pray this gets easier for him. I just wish I could help him so he could just have fun.

Tantrum or Meltdown? I don't know really. I think it's a little of both. AS is so hard to understand sometimes. I do my best.