trouble with lies

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i'm an aspie myself and my 8 y old boy seems to be too. i am finding myself stuck in some situations because no matter how many times i explained to him that he needs to learn this to fit in, my son flat out refuses to lie, or even try to grasp the concept.
a recent example: we were at my grandparent's house, and he broke an apparently very important flower ( don't ask i don't know) in their garden. it was a part of the flower, it was not the end of the world , so i told him to put it in the pot and leave it at that. but NO. He was adamant he was going to go straight to my grandfather and confess the whole deal. so he went and did it, the only way i could have avoided it would be phisically restraining him and causing a tantrum.
i know it's a good thing that he doesn't lie, but it frustrates me to see him deliberately go and get hurt. it's not like he gets any valuable lessons from doing it anyway, because even i couldn't tell what my grandfater's reaction was, he didn't utter a word. But it must be confusing for the kid to feel like he's missing some piece of info, he does something honest and gets ignored for it....i don't know. should he learn to lie to protect himself? if so, how??? or should i let him get hurt ...
is adapting and getting accepted worth lowering yourself to that extend?

Well, I guess it depends on the situation. I'm with him on this one. Are you saying you couldn't tell what his Grandfather's reaction

would be? If he was in danger because of a broken trinket, then by all means he should lie. I guess I don't really know what your

concerns were about him taking responsibility for the accident.

Teaching someone to fit in is futile unless they want to fit in. Let your kid be himself. I can't even fathom why someone would teach a child to lie.

yes, i see how that would be confusing. i don't think his grandfather would physically hurt him of course, but i fear repeated emotional pain can also lead to trauma. he is already saying he is "stupid"a little too much for my taste, and is being bullied at school, not to horrible extends maybe, how should i know as he will not tell, but i gather it's not all rainbows and butterflies....
i'd like to help him learn to spare his own feelings.....

I have a kid who lies (not very well) and still calls himself "stupid." I think kids know when something is different about them, and that is a common but unfortunate way of handling it.

I don't like to lie, and very rarely do...and I think people value my honesty, even if it is socially awkward sometimes. I have learned to temper my honesty, however - I often say nothing, say something noncommittal, or something polite - or only offer the specific information I was asked for. Those are good skills for any kid to learn.

For instance, we've taught my son not to say "gross!" or "Disgusting!" when he dislikes a food, in favor of "Thanks, but that isn't my taste." We learned this after he'd had to struggle through three servings of a meal he hated because he went overboard and gushed over it in an attempt to be polite. Or, in the example you gave, I might go to the grandfather and say "the pot broke," without explaining more - unless, of course, he asked for specifics.

You do not want to teach your child to lie. It isn't necessary to "fit in" or for any other reason. BUT, you can teach your child that not every last bit of information needs to be shared or talked about.

The problem is, at his age he understandably doesn't have any way to measure what needs to be told, v. what does not need to be told and, so, feels best sharing everything that falls into a certain category. In this case, he seems to have absorbed the lesson,"if I break something, I need to tell the adult who owned the item." I think it is best to allow him to over-share on that one, because it is a really nice value for him to have integrated and accepted. Even if grandpa seems not to care, your child will benefit from you saying a simple, "thank you for taking responsibility for damaging the flower, but know that you don't have to worry too much about breaking most single flowers. See, there are plenty of them here!" Doing that affirms the value he was taught, rewards him for staying true to it, but also starts to give him a little context for discerning things that matter from those that don't.

I remember standing in line a few weeks after my son's birthday and realizing that I was going to have to pay a $10 entrance fee that would have been free a few weeks ago. I suggested to him that maybe we should pretend he hadn't had his birthday yet. He didn't like that idea, and I realized that $10 was a small price to pay for raising an honest child, and felt guilty for even considering it.

It gets a lot more interesting when your child gets asked to give an opinion on a sibling or friends piece of art or writing that he does not like. In that situation, there is a valid reason for teaching him not to share his unvarnished opinion. But my son most definitely sees that as lying, and telling him he should do it anyway is likely to backfire, effectively teaching him that lying is OK; AS kids have trouble with those gray areas, and are likely to go all or nothing with the lesson (ie, now they are telling me that sometimes you are supposed to lie, so why bother telling the truth when it is inconvenient to me? My parents are hypocrites!). Instead, we've talked a lot about withholding information to protect the feelings of others, and looking for things you can truthfully compliment so that you accomplish the dual goals of telling the truth and protecting feelings.

I am going to suggest that this may be one area that you've absorbed a lesson from your own childhood that isn't completely accurate, and maybe re-examine your own beliefs on lying and what you are trying to teach your son about it. I found trying to explain the white lie and what not to be a real learning experience for me, and challenging to my own understanding of the way the world works. You may have memories of feeling confused by your grandfather's reactions, but have you ever asked him about those reactions, or did you integrate a lesson based on what you assumed was driving those reactions? As we raise our own kids, we can get a really interesting opportunity to take a new look at our own lives and assumptions.

As for your last question, about lowering yourself on a value to fit in, and if that is worth it - the answer is a solid "no," and part of the reason I say that is because, in my observation, my AS son's sense of what it takes to fit in is almost always inaccurate; the inability to judge that properly is part of the condition. Not only would a person be selling who they are, but they would be doing it without, most likely, receiving the hoped for reward. This might be the number 1 way we see our AS kids get hurt: they do bad things in the hopes of fitting in, and now not only fail to fit in, but bear the consequences of their ill fated actions as well. Only a masterful manipulator with a perfect read of other people can get away with that act. The rest of us are far, far better off not trying.

thanks for putting so much thought into your answer, DW_a_mom, you really got me thinking about the way my parents raised me and how it affected the way i raise my son. my mom was an alcoholic and my step father couldn't stand me and my sister. we basically learnt to never say anything at all except yes and grew up walking on egg shells to avoid triggering violence. i guess this is why when he does something like this i cringe inside and stand very alert , as i never know how grown ups could react to an innocent kid's mistake. i internalised that being found out to be responsible for something could mean horrible consequences and i just don't get how he can not feel fear. i might be aspie, but i felt fear alright. i guess he received enough love to feel safe around adults, so it can't be a bad thing, but it doesn't stop my heart from racing and my palms from sweating.

I think you're right momsparky, he will never be a good liar even if he tries very very hard, and i'm going to try that "it is not my taste"thing with him as i get tired of hearing grunts over how misbehaved he is. reminds me of the time we were invited at some of my mother's friends 'for dinner, and i had rehearsed the "it's really delicious"with him, didn't go as planned though. he tasted it and said"it's really delicious!"sounding so sincere it was really cute, the host asked: really? would you like some more? he said :"oh , no, no, thank you, i actually think it's really gross."............ok then
it's something i really like about him, and i think i just have to admit to myslf that there is no way he will have it easier than me well, at least he will always know where to find me if he needs advice!

He is definitely going to have it easier than you did. As you wrote, he has received enough love to feel safe around adults. This is how it should be and, apparently, miles ahead of how things were for you as a child. Never forget how much that is worth. It is your gift to him.

(edited to correct a could to a should)

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 06 Oct 2010, 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

My son and I are both honest to a fault. We're just so bad at lying. I don't even try anymore. It does become a problem for my son sometimes because he often leaves out important details about his mistakes. For instance, he'll tell me that he hit his sister (as she is crying) and I'll give him a time-out only to find out later that my husband saw what happened and it was an innocent accident - she ran into him. He didn't find this detail important when he told me what happened. We're working on it. I also don't believe that lying is ever necessary, but it is important to learn when and when not to omit certain things.

My son is 10 years old and will tell the truth no matter what kind of trouble he gets in. Even if he knows he will be in trouble, he will tell the truth. Even if there was no witness, he will tell what he did.

E.g. When he was 9 he came home from school and stood in front of me - he looked scares shtless. He said he did something really bad and had to tell me about it. At this point I was freaked out too about what he was going to tell me. He said at the bus stop that morning, he said the F-word and S-word.

I asked him who he said it to. He said no one. I asked him who heard him (thinking there might be a note from the school in his bag). He said no one. I asked him who else wast there. He said no one. I asked him if he was alone, he said yes. I was bewildered - why was he telling me this when I would have NEVER known and neither would anyone else???? I didn't even know how to react, so I told him I would think about it and deal with it later...he was very scared all evening. Eventually I told him he is not in trouble and gave him a lecture on swearing. He still looked scared.

He will also argue with anyone, any where, about what he feels is right. He often gets in trouble for this.

Teachers often think he is lying when he is telling the truth or do not like his answers. If he is asked why he did not complete something, he will usually say "I have no reason. I just didn't do it" instead of the socially acceptable answer, which would be a made-up story such as "My stomach hurt last night so I laid on the couch all evening and went to bed early". The teachers get mad at his response because they would (IMO) prefer at least an attempted lie (seems to show the child is afraid of them or respects them or cares or something, I have no idea).

He understands the concept of the 'white lie' to protect another person's feelings. He prefers to say nothing to protect someone's feelings rather than use a white lie.

I prefer this to what some of my friends are dealing with in their NT children. They can have chocolate cake all over their face, the cake in the fridge can have a huge chunck taken out of it and their kid will still insist they didn't eat it....lol.

I think your child did the right thing by telling his Grandpa he broke the flower. I think the only 'lying' that should be taught is vague responses to questions such as 'Do I look fat in this'...lol.

I don't really think that taking responsibility for a lost trinket is something that you should be ashamed of, even if he can't lie. In fact, the truth can actually help you, whether you want it to or not.

Also, the honest-to-a-fault thing might change a bit as they are teenagers and older. Mine will believe anything I say. I'm still a very honest person though. I once said something outrageous as a joke and I was automatically believed. Of course I told them I was kidding afterward, but it kind of shocked me how much my honesty is held in regard and I never realized it until then.

Yes, we have this, too - my poor son has been sent to time-out any number of times for things that weren't his fault. He doesn't understand the difference between "accident" and "on purpose." It works the opposite way, as well - he doesn't really understand that purposefully hitting someone during a meltdown is "on purpose" (as opposed to he tripped and fell into someone; I am aware that he may not have control over what he's doing.) It is a very subtle distinction, and I understand completely why he's confused.

Once they do get it, though, you have to be careful of them over-doing the "it was an accident, I'm not at fault!" thing. That can swing pretty hard the other way. They do need to learn while the difference is important, is does not absolve them from responsibility for hurting someone, or breaking something, etc. They still must apologize and, if possible, do something to make things right.

This whole thread deals with tricky topics, and it has been interesting to read how other families see the social rules involved. Outside of the situations where someone's feelings might get hurt, and assuming our kids are not growing up in abusive situations, the lesson seems like it should always be, "tell the truth," in my personal experience. Lol, I was going to add, "at least when asked to do so," but THAT brings in a whole other can of worms, about alerting adults or problems that may need tending to, and how that should NOT wait for someone to ask you. So much judgment is involved, and judgment is hard to teach. Even then, the issue isn't about truth v. lie, but disclosure, timing, and when.

I would emphasize with the kids that are over-sharing that you appreciate their honestly, above working on the subtle lessons of distinguishing accident v. intent; over-sharing v. staying mum; etc. If you ever confuse them on that first concept, the whole trust deal can take a mighty tumble.

I feel that it's better to teach your kid to tell the truth, than it is to teach him to lie. I prefer honesty over lies, any day.