Is abuse subjective?

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I wasn't sure where to put this - hopefully here I might get some perspective both from parents and children.

I recently had a conversation with two brothers about childhood abuse and the radically different take on it confused me greatly. Both are "NT" and suffered mild to serious (but not to the point of hospital attention) physical and emotional abuse from their father. They are both educated and intelligent and so is their father. Brother A - introverted and quiet - was deeply traumatised by this and at almost 40 still struggles with some scars. Brother B - extroverted and rather aggressive himself - considers he wasn't affected at all and their father did what he thought to be best for them. While he asserts he wasn't affected, his life is pretty much a mess and his relationships with people not very good - as I said, he's quite aggressive himself and reacts poorly when he can't impose his will on others.

Brother B was very adamant that insults, constant yelling, lack of reward, beatings (bad enough to leave marks but not cause injuries) cannot be considered abuse unless they traumatise the recipient.

Needless to say, he didn't manage to convince me, but I'd like to hear others' take on this - is abuse subjective? Anybody can point me to some good books/other resources on the subject?

Abuse is not subjective in my opinion but it seems that brother B has patterned himself on his father, thus, his father couldn't have been as bad as all that because if his father was bad then he is too.

Yes some forms of abuse are subjective, i.e. the greeks were pederasts, yet many in north america are anti-pedophile. Absolute proof that what we deem abuse is culturally enforced.

I put this thread in the Parents Forum because I look for serious answers and possible resources that might educate brother B - go troll somewhere else.

*Edit: I've sent ZakFiend a PM and apologised for my reaction - it was an honest mistake

Last edited by Sallamandrina on 17 Nov 2010, 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry I took you literally. My bad.

If you already know the answer you want, why ask the question?

I agree with Zakfiend that abuse is culturally relative. I personally would consider the situation you describe as abusive in the modern world, but in a culture where aggression was valuable and comfortable personal relationships less important - say, the eastern Mediterranean at the end of the bronze age, at the time of the fall of Troy - it might well be a good way to bring children up.

Well yeah, abuse is subjective. Parents can't beat their children anymore, because that is abuse. In the old days, that was called "raising a child" in this country. In schools, a student would get 10 whips for being bad, now he gets "timeout".

From Webster's New World Dictionary:

Abuse: 1 to use wrongly 2 to mistreat, esp. by inflicting physical or sexual harm on 3 to insult; revile 4 insulting language

From Dictionary.com:

1. to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.
2. to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight.
3. to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign.
4. to commit sexual assault upon.

Seems pretty black and white to me.

Maybe Brother B should learn how to use a dictionary.

It's not about knowing the answer and I reacted like that with Zakfiend because I've already seen him flaming other threads and I posted here in an attempt to avoid drama.

I'm aware of cultural differences and the fact that these people are in their '40s already puts a different spin on it.

My question was related to whether such behaviours can be seen as acceptable or not strictly based on subjective perception on what effect they have on others - for instance is it OK to use violence if those involved say/think it doesn't affect them?

Thanks for answering DenvrDave and LostAlien - I think your take on brother B's motivations is correct.

In personal experience, when autism has made me incapable of complying with what is considered by the 'normal' majority to be expected and common procedure, I have been ridiculed, screamed at, physically punished and traumatized for not being and behaving like everybody else. If you asked the authorities involved in any of those situations, be it school, church, home or a workplace, they would tell you they were being perfectly reasonable, and the others observing at the time would probably agree. After all, none of them knew they were dealing with an autistic., just someone who seemed unwilling to behave 'properly'.

Last edited by Avengilante on 17 Nov 2010, 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No - I don't think abuse is based on the perception of the abused. there can be changes in cultural norms, so abuse could be deemed acceptable by some standards - but it doesn't change it from being abuse.

This is actually one of the most difficult aspects of abuse because commonly (example domestic violence) the abuser convinces the abused that they deserved it and they are only reacting to something CAUSED by the abused. It takes a long time to shift the thinking - it doesn't change that it is what it is.

I tend to agree with LostAlien. I would also like to add that it's possible that brother B is incapable of dealing with the possibility that he was abused and thus denies that what happened would constitute such behavior.

And I agree that ZakFiend answered your question appropriately.

May I suggest to you also, that trying to "educate" brother B is a lost cause and will likely cause you tremendous aggravation. Once people convince themselves of certain things, there is little chance of persuading them to consider other options unless they are open to being incorrect.

Brother B is compensating. He actually is affected by the abuse but cannot acknowledge it due to his way of externalizing the damage. Brother A is an internalizer and is, therefore, more open about how this has affected him. I would venture to guess that Brother B is more likely to be one that continues with the act of abusing and possibly his father was abused as well.

There is nothing you can do to educate or change Brother B-he will have to come to realizations in his own way in his own time.

It is a complex situation, in the instance of the beatings and what not, yes that is abuse, you are physically and emotionally scarring the child (could possibly result in the child being killed too).

However culture does play a role in what would be considered abuse too. Certain behaviors that we consider abusive, to other cultures would be perfectly normal and there is no negative stigmas associated with the behavior. That does not mean people from our culture should go in and take advantage of people in another culture, because that would be abusive.

It's really hard to say about what qualifies as abuse sometimes, it is a tough call to make and one that in my view requires a lot of thought on the issue and the ramifications.

I'm going to say this is one of the reasons I'm against gay marriage is because it could open up a can of worms that could lead to other things.

This is really an issue that requires a lot of thought that I'm not sure I'm qualified to give an answer.

Ok, I apologise for misjudging Zak's intentions - I really didn't want this this to degenerate since the subject is so sensitive.

Thank you Kailuamom for a very insightful post.

I don't want to "educate" him to make a point or show him the error of his ways for the sake of it. I've known these people for years and brother A is a close friend. Brother B's aggressive behaviour improved a little with age - he's not violent and I don't think he's abusing anyone although I can't be sure. But as I said his life is pretty messy and if he's in denial about the way past abuse still affects his life, a professional might help with some of his issues. Since he's reasonably intelligent and educated I thought that recommending him some books or studies on the subject could change his perspective.

Yes, Mama_to_Grace, their father was also abused and since brother B is planning to get married, brother A and I worry about the way things will go if he doesn't face his problems.

HUH? What does same gender have to do with defining abuse?