oppositional disorder and aspegerger's

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Hi there. This is the first time i ever posted anything online but I just need some support. My 14 year old son meets all the criteria of Oppositional Defiance Disorder. He is unpleasant, annoys me and his dad, is loud, obnoxious and nothing is changing. He is on meds, we go to therapy once a week for the last 6 months. He does things wrong and says just kidding. I am having a really hard time with this behavior. I wrote a list of the rules and take away electronics, etc. nothing matters. He is so disrespectful to me and my husband. I feel I live in a prison cause we can't go anywhere, do anything with him. we have an older 15 year old typical son that can't stand to be around him. I don't blame him. I even buffer all situations when they have to be together at all. When I do get out I am depressed to come in the door. I am on pins and needles in the am waiting for him to get up. I get up very early to have time to myself. He has not been physically aggressive but verbally aggressive. He constantly talks about his interests and never real life stuff so it's hard to listen about all of his fantasy worlds.

I am on meds for depression and anxiety but I can't stop having a pity party about this situation. My husband deals with it more like well what can you do. this is our life. this is the life I am supposed to have being a caretaker of my son until i die. He is so unpleasant that I don't want to spend time with him at all espc because it is on his terms.

any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks. Payton

Ill give you some advice...you can take it or leave it. I have five children, two Aspies, one NT daughter, one early onset Bi polar with some symptoms of Asperger's and one with classic Autism. I also have Asperger's. None of us, aside from my Bi polar son who is now 23, had been diagnosed until after my daughter was diagnosed with Autism about two and a half years ago. During these past two years Ive learned a lot. Some of this has been very difficult especially with the problems we have from not being diagnosed, and learning about our own problems.
My 23 year old son, my first born, was always very difficult. I can tell you stories that would raise your hair. I always say that after him I can handle any problem. My son never got the help that he needed because he did not get diagnosed properly until he was 12 by then already using street drugs to combat his feelings of sadness and helplessness. He now sits in a California state prison for the second time for theft to fund his drug use. He is only 23, as I mentioned, has a long criminal record starting in his teens (non violent theft and drug use), hepatitis C from IV drug use and a twisted back due to scoliosis that I could never get him treated for because he was a run away from an early age. My son had all these wonderful diagnoses thrown at him over the years like ODD, just another way for professionals to call your kid a brat, and Borderline Personality Disorder, a scary sounding name but also not a real disorder, in my opinion....Borderline Personality of what???.
Your son has Asperger's but I can tell by the tone of your post that you are fed up and angry with him and his problems just as I was with my son. This view of your son can only harm him. I wish I could go back and help my son instead of making him worse. I, possibly like you, just didnt know better. I did what doctors told me to, I gave him drugs and I yelled a lot when what he and the rest of the kids needed was my time, my understand and my patience and love. I never once tried to understand my son or what he was feeling, I just wanted him to be good!
You are in a tug of war with your son and neither one of you are going to end up winning. You need to stop the war, put down the rope and start learning. Put your efforts into finding out what is harming your son, why he is so angry or why he desires to harm his parents or siblings. When you take a step back and look at both sides then it is far easier to see the problem. I wish you luck in helping you and your son and I hope that it is possible for you. Im fortunate that I learned for my younger kids but it is very sad for my older son that I did not learn soon enough. I dont want you to think that his problems are your fault, because they are not but we, as parents, can do more than we think to help our kids and its not as complicated as we sometimes feel it is.

i know what you mean. my 5 year old has oppositional defiancy disorder along with his pdd-nos. although i have an 11yo on the spectrum and a 4yo who is going through the diagnosis process along with a 2yo, my 5yo is the one that makes doing things impossible and life seem unbearable somedays. can't find anyone willing to look after him. can't take him out in public. can't get him to listen. he gets violent and yells at everyone all the time. he even tried to smother my baby. he has an ea at school and the school board is set on integrating him into normal classes but he doesn't listen there either and he's not learning anything. my 4yo has learned more at school than he has and he just started school in november. he acts out to the point that none of my friends will come visit me anymore. we've been told by relatives that we are welcome to come back to visit as long as he doesn't come. he is embarrasing and his brothers and sister don't want him around them because he doesn't let anyone have a moment of peace. he makes my life increadibly difficult for no reason other than he feels like it. he has destroyed 2 beds already, tore the baseboards and chair railings off the walls, broken a window twice and pretty much anything he can break, he will. he screams for silly reasons all the time. thankfully the psychologist has him on an anti-psychotic(resperidone) and it seems to really be helping us alot but he is still very hard to handle. before he was on his medication he used to purposely injure hiself to the point that his teacher was calling CAS(same as child protection services but it's called children's aid here) on us and people thought we were beating him but he was doing it to himself. there's days where i feel like i just can't take anymore from him and i wish he wasn't here. but he is here, and as stressful as it is there doesn't seem to be much i can do about it. and he's only 5. i dread the day when he becomes bigger and stronger than us and i don't know what i'm going to do when that happens because then i won't be able to do much about the things he does........ so, *hugs* to you. i definitely feel where you are coming from.

Are you sure he has ODD? Your description fits me at that age. I was really annoying, wouldn't obey anything or anything I didn't deem right, had to control everything, described as hateful and obnoxious...

Taking away special interests from him is a no-no. Talking about his interests is part of autism also. From your post I think he will get a lot better as he gets older. Teen years are rough and I think most of the parents here have more younger children.

Hello

I have been thinking about how to respond to this post for a while, as it is a touchy subject, and I don't want to come across incorrectly. But I figured that I would give it my best shot.

For starters, allow me to say that I am not doubting you when you say that your child seems very 'difficult'. Nor am I trying to say anything along the lines of 'get over it'. I understand that your anxieties are very real, and very normal for a parent in your situation. However, that being said, I am very skeptical about a child with Asperger's Syndrome or autism being labeled with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. It is entirely possible that your child has both. But the vast majority of ODD cases involving autism are not actually ODD at all. The problem is a complete lack of understanding, which turns into a fight, which deteriorates into turning the home into a battlefield. This situation then gets blamed on the child, and he is labeled as ODD because thats much easier then actually figuring out why he acts like he does.

The problem usually starts at a young age by the parent expecting the child to do something which any normal person could do. For a normal child, this wouldn't be a problem, as they can easily do it. But for a child with a developmental disability, this reasonable expectation is neither easy, nor practical. And as such, the child doesn't do what is expected. This is perceived as 'disobedience' by the parent, and usually handled via the coercion method (I.E. punishing the child until he complies). The problem is that the disobedience isn't a lack of motivation (which coercion is effective at dealing with), but a lack of ability or understanding. And no amount of punishments or coercion will suddenly change what the child can do.

This situation winds up working out poorly for both the child and the parent. The child winds up getting punished for something they can't do anything about. And when you get punished for something you can't do anything about, it only serves to make you angry, and bitter at the person who is punishing you. And the parent doesn't get anything out of the situation either. The child is still being 'disobedient', and this just makes the parent even more angry. And the parent is now exasperated that their attempts to control their child have not only failed, but turned the child bitter and angry against them.

This situation winds up repeating itself time, and time, and time, and time again. Years and years go by, and no progress is made. The child is still not capable of doing what the parent wants them to do, and no amount of threats, punishments, and coercion fixes the problem. Eventually, after years of being treated like crap, being constantly punished for things beyond their control, living with constant anxiety, and being harassed continuously by their parents, the child just gives up and becomes very angry, bitter, resentful, and willfully disobedient/spiteful towards their parents. And thus you wind up with the situation that you are currently in.

The reality is that medications, and therapy aren't going to fix the problem here. If the problem was due to some sort of chemical imbalance, then medication would help. But the child probably isn't dealing with any chemical imbalances other then depression and anxiety at this point (which is understandable given how he has been treated). And therapy once a week to talk about his feelings isn't going to help as long as the hostile home environment remains.

The problem here is simply that you have been treating your child like the enemy. Every time you try to punish or discipline him into acting the way you want, you only accomplish making him more miserable, which makes him even more bitter, anxiety ridden, and stressed out, which makes him lash out all the more. And as long as this path continues, you are not going to make any real progress. No amount of rules and consequences are going to suddenly make him a pleasant, and happy person.

But the good news is that it doesn't have to be like this. You can change the way you treat your child, and you can work WITH him rather then AGAINST him in dealing with the current situation which is causing both of you to have problems. The good news is that if you actually spend the time getting to understand, and know him, then you can really make a lot of progress in dealing with him. But wallowing in self pity, and blaming everything on your child isn't going to make anything change.

To that end, I recommend a few things. For starters, read some of the other posts on this forum. Get to read some of the advice, and more importantly, learn what does and doesn't work. Secondly, I would recommend some books. There is a list of recommended books in the sticky section (top of the page), and that is a decent place to start. I would also recommend reading the E-book available for download at http://www.ASDstuff.com It is free, and it does a good job of explaining the process of how problems arise, and how to handle them.

I am not saying that it is going to be an overnight 180, but I do know that spending some time to actually understand, and work with your child is going to yield MUCH better results then simply continuing to punish, and get angry at him. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

An Aspie might be annoying or disobedient because:
1. Sensory issues. You just can't do something when it causes you more than a certain amount of pain. So instead you fight because anything hurts less.
2. Sensory issues again. Sensory-seeking behavior is non-negotiable. Live with it.
3. Overload. Imagine that every time someone spoke, they screamed at the top of their lungs. Imagine that your clothes were made of sandpaper. Imagine that someone screamed at you to do something. You wouldn't be able to do it; you'd shut down. And then they thought you were ignoring them to be rude, so they raised their voices.
4. Trouble understanding the request.
5. Tiredness. It'd make anyone cranky. Imagine that every time you saw a person it took away part of your energy, and every time you smiled it took away part of your energy, and every time you made eye contact for about two seconds it was equivalent to running from one end of the block to the other, and every time you spoke it was like getting slapped in the face. And now another person wants something from you? No. You're not going to do it. You're going to yell at them and run away.
6. Not being able to obey. At first you'll try and fail and get yelled at, or just stand there. After a while you refuse to try (enforced failure will do that to you) and instead lash out.
7. After experiencing one or more of the first six possibilities long enough, having learned that being asked to do something invariably results in an awful fight. So instead of trying your best you bring on the inevitable fight now on your terms instead of trying so hard for someone who's never grateful.

please explain how having AS prevents a child from understanding simple directions like, "time to pick up the cars, put them away." when they clearly know exactly what you expect them to do when you say that.. then it is a choice they make not to comply. they choose not to do what they are supposed to do because they would rather do what they want to do. not because they 'can't'. so then what do you expect the parent to do? pat them on the back and congratulate them for not listening?

stop blaming the parent for the kids behaviour problem. that's not fair. i doubt the parent is making unreasonably difficult demands and understands the childs shortcomings already. i'm sure she didn't do anything to bring it on and the child is clearly being unreasonable and stubborn.

lost my post deleted it on accident.

I'm sure she didn't knowingly or intentionally do anything to bring it on. On the other hand, she almost certainly doesn't understand the child's shortcomings (I've never yet met an NT who really got it).

What does "time to pick up the cars, put them away" entail?

1. Parse it. This is difficult for kids with receptive language delays, which is possible even if they sound normal.
2. Sequence the actions. How do I get from what I'm doing to having this done? This is difficult for kids with executive function issues. Unless you've ever gone to brush your teeth and forgotten that it requires you to pick up the toothbrush, and so stared at it perplexed and then wandered off, you have absolutely NO IDEA what this is like.
3. Make the transition. Unless you've ever lain down, wanted to not be in that position and realized you've forgotten how to move, you also have NO IDEA how immensely difficult this is.
4. Do it. This is the easy part, as long as you don't have any problems that would be far more easily visible to someone who knew you.

You will never understand how angry your last sentence makes me. You will never understand what it is like to have people blow up at you for "clearly being unreasonable and stubborn" when your actions are perfectly logical and you have no idea what they're upset about. You will never understand. This is one of those things that you have to experience to understand. That, however, is no excuse for assuming the worst. Please assume the best when dealing with me. I assume that you are truly flummoxed and can see no explanation for or pattern to your son's behavior. I could just as easily assume that you are willfully ignorant, but I do not believe in attributing to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. I do not bring this up to make you feel bad. I say this to show you what I mean. I could assume ill intent, but instead I assume incompetence. Please do the same.

While ODD might happen in autistic people, my post was directed to the OP. I think in many cases the issue is not true ODD.

I am sure I will make someone angry, but I can clearly see that there are times that my son knows exactly what we are asking him to do and he is capable of doing it, and he just sits there looking at us with a smile on his face refusing to do it. I know that there are times that things are difficult for him, I am aware of those things, and I work with him on those things allowing extra time for processing and executing. But, there are times when he is purposely ignoring what we are telling him and does it anyway. For example, when we tell him to stop climbing on the coffee table or that we don't climb on the dining room table. He will just keep doing it anyway. I have often wondered about ODD myself but I am not sure. It is all so confusing. He is only 5, so some of this is just typical childhood behavior. Trying to push buttons and see what he can get away with.

To the OP, I think if you can read more about AS, maybe you will start to understand that some of the things your son does are just the way he is wired, and you will need to just accept this and try to accept him for who he is. For instance, talking about his special interests. I know it can get on your nerves, but if you actually take the time to show your son that you are interested in what is interesting to him, then maybe you can work on building a better relationship with him. Try to set time limits on the amount of time he can talk about something and then tell him that you are going to choose something to discuss. Working on the back and forth conversation with him. Instead of always being at odds with him, try to find good things about him to praise him for, and reward him for the times that he is doing good. For now, I wouldn't take away the things that are relaxing to him such as the electronics.

It is going to be difficult since he is a teenager now. I have no real clue how to handle a teen, because my son is still so young. But there are common characteristics among Aspies that once you are aware of, then you can start on trying to understand your son better. I think the more you educated yourself on AS, the better things will be.

Yeah, it's totally possible for Aspies to also behave badly on purpose. (That sounds like a kid being a kid to me rather than anything pathological, but I'm neither a parent nor a shrink.) I'm not saying that never happens. But when two totally different neurotypes are dealing with each other that can't be the first assumption, especially if it seems way outside the bounds of normal bad behavior.

My son has always confused me. I remember when he was only about 2 yrs old, and he still would not stack blocks. Of course all of the baby books said that he should have been doing this months before. I worked with him for months just trying to get him to put a block on top of another one. Then one day, he started stacking the blocks and he stacked 17 blocks high!

I remember arguing with the speech therapist because she would ask him to do something like go get that toy off of the table. I would say that I just don't think that he wants to do that. And she would say "I don't think he is understanding what we are asking him to do" I never believed that. I didn't get upset or anything with him, I just felt like he just didn't want to do certain things. Even at 5.5 yrs old, I know he can put his shirt and pants on, but he doesn't want to do it most of the time. I have always thought that there was a defiant element to his behavior. He is a very sweet and loving little boy most of the time, but sometimes I think he just wants to have control.

Sorry to have gotten off topic, I am sure my post is not helping the OP with her teen son----------

what you are describing is a transition, a change from one activity to another. it is VERY common for autistic children to have problems with transitions. it could be a simple matter of the child not being ready to stop playing with the cars or being in the middle of a scripted event they have planned out in their mind. at that time, if you try to insist the child put the cars away, or heaven forbid, put them away yourself, you will very likely send that child into an emotional tailspin. an autistic child doesnt have the self regulation to stop the tailspin, and if you dont facilitate it, it will likely escalate into a meltdown. the child DOES NOT have the ability to comply at that point, it is not a choice they can make.

what would *I* expect the parent to do? i expect them to understand and plan for the fact that their child may have a problem with the requested transition. hopefully they would use methods to smooth the transition, like a timer or verbal countdown. i expect them to recognize when the child is getting emotionally charged and help the child regulate. and i expect them to very carefully if at all punish a child who is not complying due to autistic traits.

what i dont expect parents to do, with any child with autism much less odd, is to demand compliance and immediately punish noncompliance. that simply isnt effective with autism.

the noncompliance from an autistic child is not the same as the noncompliance from an odd or even nt child. its just not the same thing. i cant imagine what it would be like to have a child with both issues, but i would hope any parent in that position manages to find a line between the two sets of behaviors, though i doubt there is one, and can address the behaviors appropriately. i can tell you from experience with my own kids, one asd, one nt, and one very oppositional 14 yr old who is mostly nt with some asd traits, that they each require their own parenting methods that are very different. the only thing that is the same for all three is that whatever works for one doesnt work for his two brothers.

so because the child does not want to put his cars away yet, even though he's perfectly capable of putting the cars in the container, means he's not capable of doing it? i can't buy that. if he knows how to do it, then he has to do when he's told. he is being oppositional by not doing what he's told to do and not wanting to do is not the same as not being able to do it. if not wanting to do something makes one incapable of doing it then there would be a whole world of people doing whatever they felt the urge to do in the moment instead of doing what needs to be done.

http://www.autistics.org/library/inertia.html

I've been trying since before Christmas to replant some small cacti. It's not a huge chore. It's something I want to do, want to have done, am quite capable of doing. I haven't got the foggiest clue what I'm doing. I mean, I have. I need to get the pots ready-- clean off the cobwebs-- I need to put in some of the cactus mix in each, and a cactus, and fill to the top. I know how to do it. And somehow I don't have the power to start this task. I'm sure once I've started I'll be able to see it through unless there's a break, but... More motivation would do nothing but stress me out (an even MORE important thing isn't getting done). And there's no external sign of this.