My 5 yr old is driving me nuts!

Post Reply New Topic

Hi everybody. Most of you probably already know that I have 5 yr old twin boys on the spectrum. Well, one of them is driving me insane! He's on the HFA end of the spectrum and is a sweet, nice, smart kid who loves to make friends. But he's also stubborn, defiant, and will push every rule given and laugh about it! It's like the terrible 2s times ten. To note: he doesn't have meltdowns, but he will scream when he's frustrated or doesn't get his way. It's not a meltdown though; it's more like he's ultra-pissed. I know it's not a meltdown because you can talk to him in between his screams, and if you say something that he really likes like "iPad", he'll stop screaming and say, "what?" or "okay". So, that tells me that it's a temper tantrum, although one for the gods!!

He has to do everything "one more time". If I tell him 1 more minute, he wants two. If I say don't scream again, he'll look me right in the face and give another ear-piercing scream. If I say don't hit your brother again, he'll look me in the eye and reach over and whack him. It's like we're in a power struggle and he's daring me to call him on his bluff.

I'm an alpha kind of person, so this doesn't hurt my feelings. If he wants to play power games, I of course have more tricks up my sleeve than he does at 5. But, I hate that I'm thinking this way about my pre-school kid. What do you think could be going on here? Again, he really is a nice, fun child. Until he doesn't get his way. Is this normal and I should be fine with using normal power tactics like time-outs, etc? Or could this be related to his ASD? It feels like a big "eff you, you can't make me do it" to me, and that is making me angry rather than sympathetic. I'm looking for another way to view this.

Other notes: we hug and cuddle a lot in our house. Use a lot of positive affirmation and rewards. I also try to reason with him, to which he most often responds with a full-throated scream in my face, complete with bulging neck veins.

I think for some of our kids, related to rigidity and anxiety, they fell more secure when they get the last word and feel like they are in charge. It is almost like the opposite of what standard parenting advice says about kids feeling more comfortable and safer with boundaries. We can use standard parenting techniques more often these days, but in the early years we really did have to negotiate and compromise most of the time. We still do it a lot of the time but not as much--because he needs it less.

The Ross Green "Explosive Child" book is where we started off (recommended on this forum. We don't follow it all the way for a few reasons. One is that he until relatively recently has had trouble communicating his concerns and so we had to guess a lot. The other is that he only requires it some of the time, and sometimes the standard stuff works, and the school (while we were in public school) was not going to abide by that sort of advice and I felt pressured into getting him to adapt to their way. Now that we don't have to worry about that issue, I can use it more when we need to, but he can tolerate a more authoritarian way for much more of the time b/c I think his anxiety is way down. So what we do is kind of a hybrid.

Thanks ASDMonny! Long response to come in a bit.

I really like the Explosive Child, too. Is he a bit young for it though, especially considering ASD communication challenges? Even though he is bright and likes to talk a lot, he might not be able to put words to his feelings. He might not be able to even identify his feelings.

I've worked with kids like this. One of the really important things is to always talk about what happened after everyone, including you, calms down. We're working on building skills here, right?

I wonder if Social Stories might be a better fit for his age? It's got a similar skill-teaching focus, but it's aimed at younger kids. I've had a lot of success with this with the kindergarten crowd. Social stories breaks down the problem, and provides solutions. And then it uses the kid friendly book-format to review the information over and over again, as kids do when they read a book. The family writes it together, and colors it together, so it can be a lot of fun, and very positive. Because you are sitting down and writing when everyone is calm, its non threatening. You kind of talk about the problem in the third person, so it doesn't feel like nagging the child.

When I was using this, I would even say something a long the line of, let's make our character be named [the same name as the kid]. This is X. He's sad because he got in trouble today. X got in trouble because he yelled in Mommy's face. Ect... Young kids fall for this. They don't take it personally. Such wisdom! From a not-personal point-of-view, we are much better problem solvers.

It's really great when you see a kid reflecting what was in the book for the first time. Children copy what they see on TV and books all the time. Why not load that with stuff you want them to learn?

First off, you are not alone!! My oldest son is 6 (HFA) and is similar in some ways. While reading your post, the one thing that stood out to me that was when you said that you try to reason with your son. I tried to do this for a long time, and through my own education efforts I stumbled along some literature that explained the cognitive development stages in toddlers and adolescents. At 6 years old, the childs reasoning brain is not turned on yet. A therapist explained it to me like a two story house.... the upstairs is there, and the light might come on, but all the doors to the second story rooms are still closed. Because of this, all of the processes that are going on are taking place on the first floor level...and that is where the more rudimentary functions take place.

As for the behaviors, I have seen my son dig his heels in and begin the test of wills many times. From what I know, some of that is his expression of self but there is some of it that I can also attribute to AS. What I have experienced is that there is usually something "behind" the behavior. (Sensory, events of the day, attention seeking, and some of it seems like spite for spites sake)

A couple of things that we have implemented in our house with the help of a Psychologist that have helped....

1) a chart that allows him to express how he is feeling and what can be done to make him feel better.
EX. Right now I am feeling _______________________ (insert picture of facial expression related to feeling) (we use velcro on the back so they can be swapped out) and __________________________ will help me feel better. (Insert word such as hug, time alone, squishes or brushes from sensory diet, climbing, or heavy blanket

2) This has been the most helpful so far....it develops a language that everyone in the house can use to express their level of ager/frustration. It is a picture of a thermometer from 0 to 10 0= rainbows and unicorns and 10 is full on rage 7= is the cut off line, where activity stops so that the individual can do what they need to do to calm down. What works about this is the picture of the thermometer provides a visual and the numbers provide a very easy way to communicate your level with a single sentence, which means it's easy to understand. After the system is used for a while it boils down to a verbal numbers system that can be used anywhere. If my son says he's at 5 then I know he is on the rise, if he says, he's at a 7, I know it is time to change directions, same goes for Mom and I. It may not solve the defiance, but if implemented and adhered to it can really help the communication process. Once the 7 level is reached, meaningful communication becomes next to impossible because the downstairs brain shuts down and it becomes more of the primal "fight or flight" type responses. (as explained to me by the Psy.)

One additional idea that may help.... my wife is NT, and my oldest son and I are Aspie's. As you may know, the two groups of people communicate differently. Even at 6 yrs old, my wife has difficulty communicating with my son as he had difficulty communicating with her. It may seem small, but we have found that it definitely adds to the mix.

In closing, I hope that this has been of some help. Before I found the WP and even before my sons dx, I always said that "it shouldn't be this hard" But in reality it is. My wife and I call it "The Churn". And it has been this forum that has helped me out in a lot of ways!! !! ! Again, know that you are not alone. Kind Regards Shark

Try working on reinforcing not doing that "1 more time". Start with small and make it a HUGE DEAL when he doesn't repeat or do something twice. Here's the thing...when you say you don't want that second try or what not, that is telling him that if he does whatever a second time, IT WILL GET a reaction out of you.... in other words, attention and as soon as you react, he's achieved what he wants.

Listening first. Advice second.

So tell me? What do you want me to listen to?

Your advice is...well... bad. It's from a pure behaviorist model that pro-ports that human behavior is all about attention seeking and pain avoidance. But here's the thing, we humans aren't just robots or rats in a maze. We a need to be seen and heard in a way that isn't just looking for attention. It's looking for connection. And yes, autistic kids do require connection as well as NT kids, we just have different ways of getting that connection.

You just implied that autistic kid achieving what he wants as a bad thing because you want to use his need for attention and affection to control him. Because it's all about you maintaining your dominance - letting that child know that you are in control. Well, how is that going to work long term? Once you've established that you are in control no matter what, where does that leave an autistic child? When does he develop his own sense of self-control?

You can't know why this child is behaving this way. In fact, I think the great probability is that he isn't looking for attention - that he is struggling with some intense feelings and attempting to get his caregiver to help soothe him because he has no idea how to do so himself. I know this from years of listening to adults who were these high-needs kiddos talk about their experience. And I know it from my own childhood. Attention seeking isn't really the base line for helping ND kids manage our behavior. We're all about sensory and expectation management.

If you continue speaking from this behavioralist-only model, you're going to trigger a lot of the people who frequent these boards. By trigger, I mean that we are emotionally reminded of the abuse in our pasts, and can have emotional reactions based on that. I called what happened to me "Lab Rat Education" because I was treated like a lab rat. Given rewards for good steps and having everything I cared about removed if I didn't comply. It set up a massive hunger in me for real learning - for understanding and for acknowledgement of my intelligence. Lab rat education taught me not to trust myself. It taught me to let other people abuse me, because I was taught that there is no option but to comply. (And heaven forbid those times when I did not have the ability to comply.) Being treated like a lab rat is abuse. It brings up lots of intense feelings when we are reminded of this. And when we have intense feelings, sometimes we strike out. On these boards, that means you're likely to get "treated" to some very blunt language and some really harsh reminders about how many of us really hate ABA.

I know you are brand new here. I greeted you. I don't want to blast you out of here. But you trigger really intense feelings in me just introducing yourself. Just the term "ABA" is triggering. And you didn't seem to even know that you might be facing some resistance from the autistic community. Did you even know that there is a community? Or that we can talk and share ideas and have opinions?

A good place to start if you want to participate in autistic community is the book Neurotribes. It will give you some idea about how we got to the place where saying things like you just said feels acceptable, even normal. And at the very least, it might help you project into how we might feel about it - consider it an exercise in developing your own theory of mind.

I am actually pretty shocked and offended by the response posts. And maybe that's because I don't have enough experience or spent enough time on here but I think you have the WRONG impression and idea of me.

I am not the behaviorist that came on here before. I am a person who struggles from multiple diagnoses outside of ASD that learned how much she loved making a difference in individuals lives. Who want to help better the lives and those around my clients lives.

Shocked and offended sound just about right. Autism is the only disorder I know of where a large number of the people who have undergone treatment for it turn around and attack their therapists. (verbally, I mean.) You could write a book on why this happens. Oh wait. They already have. I recommended it above.

I don't really see how having any diagnosis could make anything different. I was a special educator and used to speak that way. And I do have ASD. I call it Stockholm syndrome. That's a little tongue in cheek, but it's also true. I was reflecting the abuse I received. A lot of adults do this when they start to parent, too.

Look, I don't really give a hoot if you hate me. Go ahead. But maybe you can both hate me and re-evaluate your stance towards those you are trying to help? We need you to hear that it's time to stop working towards compliance and start working with us as whole people. Trying to manipulate children into compliance, without thought of why they are behaving the way they are behaving, and with no thought of helping them develop their minds and hearts, is harmful. Full stop.

I hope your responses to my posts help you feel better and achieve something. I am done posting publicly.

Thank you all for your wonderful replies! I took some time to process them before responding, so apologies for the delay.

In giving it more thought, I mischaracterized my son. He's not explosive, at least in the traditional definition. When he is defiant in the way that I described, it's more like he's disregulated. He even looks a litte loopy, sometimes laughing hysterically when I give him my serious face. Typically, he would be able to read that expression and correct his behavior. But when he's in his zone, it causes the inappropriate laughter response, more screaming, or verbal insistence on getting his way that can persist for hours after the disagreement.

I don't believe he behavior is attention seeking, but I'd be okay if it was. I'm not of the camp of ignore the child. I will do it and have done it,but not when I think there's a crisis. Instead, I only ignore my children when I believe that they're fully in control of their faculties and are just being annoying (Chicken nuggets!!!ma, mommy, mommymommymommymommy, mama, maaaaaaa!! !). Then I just wait until they rephrase or adjust their approach to respond (Mommy, can I have some nuggets please?). But, this feels different. And given the fact that he does it more when he's tired or overstimulated, disregulation seems like the right answer.

That being said, he's too old for naps. And I try to watch for the signs, but am still a bit helpless as to what to do when I see them. He's headstrong and independent (taught himself how to dress himself - didn't want help. He was later than NT kids, but he did it all by himself and insisted upon it!! He's working on learning how to tie his shoes now and woe unto you if you try to show him without him expressly asking for intervention). So, it's difficult to intervene in advance and get him to do something calming. He wants to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it.

I could also use some help with what to do when he gets into his "one more time" mania. I could walk away. I don't like that technique (feels passive aggressive and that's counter to my personality), but I have tried it. He acts emotionally devastated. Mass destruction followed by hysterical crying. It breaks my heart. And I never want him to think that his mom's love is conditional, like he only gets it if he's behaving in a way that I approve of. I want him to fee secure, loved, and safe. But also know that he has limits and a responsibility to give back to his family and not just expect them to give to him. That means respecting boundaries. Heavy stuff, I know.

I love the idea of social stories. He's a thoughtful kid and he remembers everything. I don't know if he'll have enough self-control to implement the lesson, but he'll definitely be able to refer back to it and understand the concepts.

Any other thoughts on this? Especially on what to do when I see signs, or how to handle it when he's loopy?

Thanks again to everyone!

Well, yah. I like being helpful. It makes me feel good. I can't control when its received or not received. But I like that I tried. That's why I come around this web site. It does provide a good feeling to help disseminate accurate information about a mis-understood disorder. I hear you saying that you don't feel like you are receiving benefit, but someone else might. That's the thing about public forums. You never know who is reading them.

Krelliott44 - please don't stop posting. Your reply was helpful. Getting flack on here is par for the course - it's like being a man and stepping into a women's forum and saying well-intentioned things that sometimes resonate the wrong way. I'm not on the spectrum either and have gotten my ass handed to me. Some things I've learned from and some I've plain old disagreed with or thought were knee-jerk. But this place is for folks on the spectrum by and large and I'm not. So, it's not my place to exert my world-view. I'm here to learn for the sake of my boys. Doesn't mean that I like it all the time or take all advice as equal, but on the whole I've learned a great deal and hope I've helped a few parents in return. Don't go.

Yeah well they're right.....I don't know anything and I am just on here to look good. I don't know anything about why behaviors occur and why and how individuals WITH Autism feel