Perspective and Point of View
In another thread I marveled at a response given aspie1968. In brief, I thought aspie1968 expressed a great understanding of perspective of both the Aspie point of view and the NT point of view. I asked how one achieves such insight since it seems so hard for people to understand eachothers' POV. Now, I can't say that I completely understand the response I got, I will have to meditate on it a while but at aspie1968's suggestion, I am starting a new thread to maybe get some more ideas along this line.
How can we break down the communication barriers between Aspie and NT and both learn to see things from the other's point of view or some approximation thereof? (I realize this has been covered to some extent in various threads but usually it seems adjunct to other topics).
aspie1968 wrote:
"Not wanting to stray too far off-topic, but the short version of the answer would be, lots of reading in the social sciences, training in critical literacy, some study of interpretive methods (ethnographic, psychoanalytic, discursive, etc), and a very diverse circle of friends. I suspect the main 'switch' in going this way is unlearning the habit of assuming a common experiential reference-point for language and of reading others' actions by analogy or comparison to one's own (which I think people both sides of the 'divide' are prone to do, though it has different effects in each case, and which I had to learn my way out of). Instead I try to deduce backwards from an action or statement, cross-read it with other things I know about the person's perspective to make an informed guess about the assumptions informing it, and if necessary ask the question, what other assumptions need to be added for this conclusion to make sense? This gives the contours of an informed guess from which better analogies can be drawn. This involves viewing communication as translation (always comparing two different perspectives), rather than by analogy to one's own thought-processes and sensory input. The guesses remain very approximate, especially if they're not corrected by dialogue. I guess it could be a long-term effect of using intellectual processing as a functional substitute for empathy."
Guess we don't have too many Trekkies in this crowd so I changed the title of my post. Too bad because if you ever really wanted to see a good example of an Aspie on TV, skip Parenthood where people just scream at eachother all the time and find a channel running Star Trek episodes. Spock and Data are 2 of the best examples of Aspies I've seen on TV.
Part of Aspie1968's response reminded me of one of my favorite episodes of Star Trek the Next Generation. In that episode, the crew of the Enterprise had to learn to communicate with a speicies who spoke exclusively in metaphors related to their own culture and history. The individual words were understandable but there was no meaning to them without knowing a lot about the other peoples' background.
I think in life we come across these communication barriors no matter who we're talking to NT-AS, NT-NT, AS-AS... I think the biggest part of being able to communicate effectively no matter who your talking to is just simply understanding that everyone is unique and has their own opinions, thoughts, ideas, loves, dislikes... Obviously if you know the person your talking to you already have a clue about the things they like or dont and things they think strongly about so then you just choose the way you phrase things according to who it is. But then you also have to realize that just because you disagree doesn't mean your wrong and doesnt' mean they are wrong it just means you dont agree.
I think for example a lot of us NT peoples use so much emotion in what we type or say (bit like putting too many toys in a tub)... after a while the main point might be lost or we might ramble and then there are more than one point. .. so if we are having a conversation with a person who is more concrete in thinking and not as emotional as we are we need to learn to just "say what we mean"
and i do think too if time is given for someone to clarify before anger or upset comes out a lot of miscommunication could be avoided. It's always interesting to read boards because sometimes you'll come across a threat where everyone seems to be angry by somthing someone said .. rarely tho does that person come back and said "this is what I ment" instead tempers flair and arguments errupt.
I took a class in college about interpersonal communication and relations I remember a part where we learned "I" statments and at the time I thought it was so rediculous but the basic idea was that if you start out a sentence saying "your wrong" you immediately upset the other person and put them on the defensive... if you rephrase it saying somthing like "it hurts me to think i'm not being heard... this is my opinion bla bla" anyway the concept centered around how you phrase the things you say to avoid putting someone on the defensive from the start. And in life I have seen where this exact phrasing does make a difference. So again i really think it's sometimes just how you phrase the things you say and an understanding of the person your talking to
About 20 years ago, I saw an interview of Deborah Tannen on her just released book "You just don't understand; women and men in conversation" on a cable TV channel. Ms. Tannen is a linguist and approaches conversation from that perspective. At the time, I never heard of this perspective, but the interview was so compelling that I went out and bought the book. The book helped me immensely in my communication with women because I started to recognize communication from their perspective rather than my own (male) perspective and more importantly recognize areas where I might be misinterpreting intentions.
Fast forward to today. With my AS son, I find that it is the exact same issue. The issue is that of perspective; the ability to see and interpret things from someone else's framework rather than our own. For me, reading this site has been very illuminating as has been reading books, attending parent groups etc. For my son, I know that the social skills group that he goes to has helped him immensely over the years. The professionals that run the group are top-notch. He loves the group and the interaction that he has with other kids like him. For him, it is one of the most important things that he looks forward to each week.
I also find watching TV with my son interesting and illuminating. I don't do this continuously, but occasionally when a character says something that I think he will misinterpret, I ask him if he understands what they were talking about. If he misinterprets or doesn't know, that gives me the opportunity for a short thirty-second lesson. I also do this in the car with radio conversations. With him, giving him short nuggets of advice in the moment is the most effective. He usually remembers these lessons.
I have also learned that my son's thought process in interpreting events is usually quite logical, but in many cases it begins by focusing on something that the average non-AS person would not and thus reaches a different conclusion than what is expected. I can now generally recognize when he is focusing on something different. However, I usually can not figure out why he is focusing on something different without asking him directly. I find this quite similar to communication with the opposite sex. There are some things that I will never understand about female communication, however if I can recognize the things that I as a male may misinterpret, I can then seek clarification so I do not misinterpret. The real issue is that most people can't or won't take the effort to look at things in this way. That's why our kids can have it so rough. To be integrated in society, they must always be the one willing to put forth the effort. It's not fair, but it is the way life is.
About 20 years ago, I saw an interview of Deborah Tannen on her just released book "You just don't understand; women and men in conversation" on a cable TV channel. Ms. Tannen is a linguist and approaches conversation from that perspective. At the time, I never heard of this perspective, but the interview was so compelling that I went out and bought the book. The book helped me immensely in my communication with women because I started to recognize communication from their perspective rather than my own (male) perspective and more importantly recognize areas where I might be misinterpreting intentions.
Fast forward to today. With my AS son, I find that it is the exact same issue. The issue is that of perspective; the ability to see and interpret things from someone else's framework rather than our own. For me, reading this site has been very illuminating as has been reading books, attending parent groups etc. For my son, I know that the social skills group that he goes to has helped him immensely over the years. The professionals that run the group are top-notch. He loves the group and the interaction that he has with other kids like him. For him, it is one of the most important things that he looks forward to each week.
I also find watching TV with my son interesting and illuminating. I don't do this continuously, but occasionally when a character says something that I think he will misinterpret, I ask him if he understands what they were talking about. If he misinterprets or doesn't know, that gives me the opportunity for a short thirty-second lesson. I also do this in the car with radio conversations. With him, giving him short nuggets of advice in the moment is the most effective. He usually remembers these lessons.
I have also learned that my son's thought process in interpreting events is usually quite logical, but in many cases it begins by focusing on something that the average non-AS person would not and thus reaches a different conclusion than what is expected. I can now generally recognize when he is focusing on something different. However, I usually can not figure out why he is focusing on something different without asking him directly. I find this quite similar to communication with the opposite sex. There are some things that I will never understand about female communication, however if I can recognize the things that I as a male may misinterpret, I can then seek clarification so I do not misinterpret. The real issue is that most people can't or won't take the effort to look at things in this way. That's why our kids can have it so rough. To be integrated in society, they must always be the one willing to put forth the effort. It's not fair, but it is the way life is.
What an emotionally smart post for an NT male...you may just have flipped my view of the world upside down
I think this is really key. Reminding ourselves regularly to stop and think. "Am I interpreting this situation correctly?"
Apologies for missing this thread! I hadn't been back on the general index since posting before.
Agreed re: Spock and Data. Gnomes in the Dragonlance universe are also portrayed in a rather aspie-like way, as are most of the characters in 'Dweebs' (which you'll have some trouble finding), especially the manager (it's set at a computer firm and is pretty much, “what it would be like to be the one NT person in an office of aspies”). If you like fictional parallels, Kafka might have been an aspie, and his protagonists certainly experience things in what I'd take to be quite an aspie way (“The Trial” is very close to how I'd literally describe my experiences with bureaucracy, and “The Metamorphosis” is a about misunderstandings across difference which make a lot of sense to me too). There's speculations around other authors as well (Joyce I can't comment on, Lovecraft I can feel the parallels, you'll find longer lists online some places). In my case, I usually only start to “get” what characters are feeling in literature or film by reading secondary commentaries interpreting them, but I suppose that's because they don't usually try to make NT motives explicit to aspies.
In my view, the biggest single barrier to understanding someone else's perspective is the belief that one's own experience constitutes reality, and reality is obvious to everyone. There's a lot of counterevidence to this: basically, one's prior conceptual frame has a big effect on what one perceives; this is particularly documented in anthropology. I think with aspie-NT differences, it isn't mainly conceptual, it's mainly sensory: the same sensory input is experienced differently by autistic people than NT people (and between different autistic people too), and this has big effects on the conceptual frames which make sense, and how they're deployed (for instance: I suspect the “concrete thought” issue comes down to the fact that transfers of concepts, rules etc between situations depends on perceptions of similarities which are sensorily inflected). People seem to either 'click' with the idea that there are multiple perspectives on a deep level, or they don't – it's a bit like replacing one paradigm with another.
The difficulties are multiple.
Firstly, we're all encouraged through the language we use to identify our own experiences with reality, because a lot of the language we have available is factual and instrumental. This is a limit to everyday language, particularly in its 'restricted speech-code' variants. This makes it harder to realise that other people are actually seeing, or experiencing, something quite different to what we are, or to what we would experience 'in their shoes'.
Secondly, both NT's and aspies seem prone to thinking “by analogy” unless we stop ourselves doing it, i.e. assume that others are acting in the way that would make sense as an explanation of how/when/why we would act in this way. It's a kind of short-cut: guessing what someone else is thinking or feeling, and predicting (or trying to influence) what they will do, based on analogy to oneself. This seems to work well enough among NT's (not sure among aspies), but it doesn't work across the neurological divide. (The same problems can come up interculturally, and when engaging with animals, young children, and quite a lot of other cases as well).
Thirdly, NT people in particular are encouraged by overexposure to their own 'type', and its portrayal as universal humanity, to assume that other types don't exist or to minimise the differences involved (this also applies to issues such as ethnicity and gender: it's the problem of 'unmarked terms' in critical theory). The corresponding problem for aspies is to move away from imagining that conventional terms and images apply to us as representations (e.g. learning not to infer from TV shows and suchlike that socialising is 'easy' for everyone, including us).
Once we've decided not to guess motives by analogy, we need another way to think about how other people are thinking or acting. The alternative I tend to use, which is derived partly from discourse analysis, partly from ethnographic/qualitative research methods and partly from critical literacy theory, is to try to deduce the other person's perspective by making guesses about the other person's thoughts, feelings and actions based on what one knows already about their perspective – both specifically (from past observation or conversation) and generically (from knowledge or guesses about what kind of person they are – which is where labels like NT/aspie come in). The guesses will always be approximate, but will become correspondingly closer the more details one has, and in particular, the more one 'corrects' guesses against the person's own reactions, against failures to understand and so on.
In some ways, it's not understanding a person in the usual sense, so much as understanding a matrix of interlinked linguistic, cultural, conceptual, psychological and sensory points which form a more-or-less integrated system. I've seen this kind of approach called various names in critical theory – heterolingualism, language as translation, language as allegory, dialogism, heteroglossia are a few of the names flying around. It's related to translation because it's a bit like trying to think in two languages at once, or to translate between languages with different structures and concepts: the way of relating to another person's perspective is more like assuming they speak a different language and learning how their terms relate to one's own a few at a time, than like deducing from a common basis. I also suspect one never quite gets there. I think one only ever has approximate guesses, one never fully understands where the other is coming from, because none of us can get fully inside someone else's sensory frame. What we have is thus ultimately 'allegorical', it's an indirect reconstruction of someone else's frame based on one's own, which at best, relates to it a bit like a map to a territory: the significant points are there, the points are related in a way which parallels their relation in the territory, but still, the map is not the territory. To understand emotionally, I quite often end up back at analogies, but analogies which are increasingly stretched and indirect, referring to different types or classes of experience (being grabbed for a tactile-defensive person is like being stabbed in the arm for someone else).
I suspect that guessing by analogy is very efficient among a core group (hence its persistence), but also very imprecise and very exclusionary; one might say it's 'difference-blind'. It rests on assuming others are, at root, the same as the self, and that language and reality are basically homogeneous between all of us. I also suspect it depends on people being 'mass-produced' so they have more similar perspectives than they otherwise would. (Incidentally, it doesn't seem to be transculturally universal. Some languages/cultures seem much more difference-aware than others). This is also related to the distinction between instrumental and expressive models of language. I'm inclined to take an expressive view of the social role of language. If the analogy approach is other-as-same, the translation approach is other-as-different. In some ways this is 'inefficient' because one ends up having to suspend judgement a lot, and it becomes harder to simply react to what someone is doing. It also yields a lot less certainty about what other people are thinking/doing, even the ones one thought one understood. These, I think, are the reasons it isn't more common. But it's the way to get some sense of how someone's thinking or acting if they aren't coming from a standpoint very close to one's own. Ultimately, I think it's necessary to develop inclusive interpersonal communication and to create an enabling context for difference. In my own case, it's something I almost stumbled across. I think I learnt this method by reading a large number of sources which use it in rather different settings (usually interculturally). I think I went this way for two reasons. The first is that I was utterly perplexed about others' actions until I started studying sociology, when suddenly the pieces started coming together. The second is that I always felt misunderstood, and the development of expressive ways of being better understood was a counterpoint to this. Having once decided I liked the approach, I followed it up with further readings, etc. I'm not sure if there's a quicker route. Critical literacy training resources (such as OSDE) exist which may be helpful here. I get the feeling you're already thinking multiperspectivally, though.
You definitely have to release the idea that you can accurately assess motive from any single perspective. I believe that knowing the largest variety of people and really talking with them, asking and listening, then reading personally written material to fill in for the broader world you don't have an opportunity to know, gets you in closest.
But you can't be afraid to ask. People like to share their perspective and little is lost if they don't and politely decline to answer. What stuns me with my husband is how much he simply refuses to ask. So missunderstandings abound when he's our primary connection to someone. For me, it's so frustrating. I lost that fear so long ago out of shear necessity. I'm not perfectly socially calibrated but good things happen when you actually talk to people.
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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
DW - OMG are our husbands related?! Mine does this all the time and it drives me crazy! Things come up where a kid has to be somewhere or is expected to do something/bring something and when the contact has been through my husband he simply does not ask about the details. He has improved a great deal on at least letting me know something is going on, it is left up to me to determine the details.
aspie1968 - thanks for that very detailed response. A lot there that I will meditate on for a while. The idea of translating to another language resonates with me as a way to put this into practice. I have 3 friends who are from different countries (2 from Germany and one from Israel). Their kids, between the ages of 2 and 8, are all completely bilingual. I am amazed to hear the mom speak to the child in German or Hebrew and hear the child respond equally easily in English or their mother's native togue. I wonder if this complete understanding of two languages allows these kids to have and easier time sseeing another person's perspective.
