At wits end with lying - need help/suggestions

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Hi All, I'm new here and really hope someone can help. Our son is almost 8 and autistic with communication delay. He is at about 5 year old level of expressive and receptive communication so that is part of the reason I'm having such a hard time knowing what to do. He continually has a hard time with being last or not getting a turn. This has escalated to him putting himself in dangerous situations (laying in the road screaming in front of the bus because he was last in line to get on, throwing things in school such as a chair that bounced of the wall and hit him in the eye when he didn't get a turn to answer a question, getting mad and laying down in front of everyone in the gym while they were roller skating... the list goes on). To try to help with the explosive behavior we've implemented using a 5 point scale and positive reinforcements (extra video game time - his favorite) when he tries to sooth himself.

We started this with a smiley chart that his teacher would check off during the week. This became a problem though because if he didn't get a smiley face that day he'd have a meltdown, so we discontinued it and continued the rewards for good days by having him tell us how things were going in school. If he used his scale he'd let us know and get extra video game time. Well, as I'm sure you can see where this is going, he started lying to us to get the "treat". We started getting reports that his behavior hadn't changed and even got worse (he is on his last pink slip for the bus for throwing his backpack and refusing to sit down because he didn't get the seat he wanted and will be banned from riding the bus if anything happens again), so we tried discipline by taking things away when we got a reports. This caused lying the other way where he has hidden letters sent home so that he doesn't get into trouble.

We stopped the discipline and just left things with no reward or discipline, the ignore technique, but that seemed to make him think he could do anything and he started to directly disobey us (going into other kids houses without asking, eating foods that are not on his special diet, not doing his daily routine, etc.). We've gone back to discipline when we catch him and reward/praise when he does what he's supposed to, but the lying is still going on and we have no clue how to curb it.

Lately the lying has expanded to just about everything (having homework, brushing his teeth, picking up his toys, etc.). He will lie that he did something and we praise him only to find out shortly later that he lied about doing it. At this point to know the truth we'd have to constantly follow him around everywhere and that's unrealistic. Here's an example of how bad it's gotten. Today I was trying to explain to him that the big track and field day at school wasn't going to happen because it was going to rain so he had to put on his regular school cloths instead of shorts and he started to have a meltdown. I tried to console him and explain that nobody could control the weather and that when it rains you have to stay inside and he said "the teacher told us yesterday to bring a raincoat to do track and field". So I tried to explain more and said that I didn't think the teacher said that and made an example that other days when it rains they have indoor recess and he lies again "no we go outside for recess when it rains". At this point we are all frustrated and I point blank ask him "are you lying because you really want to have track and field day. Lying about what the teacher said won't change the weather. Do you really go outside when it rains or is that a lie?" and he says "yes the teacher lets us go outside for recess when it rains". I even tried to narrow it down more "I think that is not the truth, so the teacher lets you go outside and get all wet when it rains?"..."yes". At this point we tell him it's not ok to lie and drop it and he gets all happy and asks us if we will be coming to watch his track and field day.

So, this is where I'm thinking he has NO CLUE that he is even lying or maybe he thinks the lies will become reality. How in the world does one deal with this?

It sounds to me like he's not only at a 5 year old level of communication, but also perhaps at about a 5 year old level of emotional maturity. On the plus side, you know that your rewards and punishments are having effects on his behavior, so you can affect his behavior if you're careful.

I think basically you have to ignore the things he says. Have rewards and punishments for things that you can independently verify - for example, things the teacher can communicate to you directly that don't go through him - but not for things that only he knows about. Praise counts as a reward.

I would consider also giving feedback when you know he's lying. For example, if you already know about a problem that he had at school that day, ask him about it when he gets home. Then you'll know for sure whether he's telling the truth, and can praise him or give some extra computer time if he does, and not if he doesn't. However, only do this with things where you already know what the truth is, no on things where you are relying on his answers for information.

Also, if he does do something bad, but tells you about it, be sure not to punish him for it. That way you don't discourage him from telling the truth.

I agree with the other response but wanted to add that it sounds like he is telling you what he WANTS to be true... So maybe when he says these things rather than talk about lying you could try agreeing with him in that you know he wishes they had recess when it rained.. maybe even both of you could 'pretend' to be having recess in the rain.

This may help him realize that this is wishful thinking as opposed to reality and maybe can avoid a meltdown with something a little more fun. This used to work when Jordan did this around 3-4. But it really did keep the situation from going downhill -from being silly we could move onto what we needed to do.

I realize I really dislike the word, "lying." There is something so negative about the word when, in contrast, as you'll note in some other threads on this board, teaching children manners does, in a manner of speaking, actually require teaching them to color truth.

So it could be said that your son has difficulty sorting out when to color the truth and when not to, when he needs to accurately recall what has happened to accurately retell it, v. when he can gloss things over a bit. As much as we'd like to believe these are obvious concepts, to a child with AS they actually are not. Society is not consistent when it comes to truth telling, and kids get quite confused.

At ages and stages where these concepts are still difficult for children, I think it solves a lot of problems to simply not require it of them. Reward what you know as fact, and don't rely on him to tell you about it. Gently correct misstatements about reality. Gently remind him of the difference between the reality we want, and the reality that is. Reward him when he follows the social guidelines for truth appropriately, and gently correct him when he does not.

As for the field day ... that doesn't strike me as a lying issue, but a difficulty accepted a change in expected reality. Once an AS child has locked onto the concept that A is going to happen, they cannot just let go of it. They would have had to have been more fully prepared with a, "A will happen IF B and C happen," or, "A should happen but it could change." These are not concepts he naturally grasps. He has to be taught how to handle changes in circumstance. Consider this: no one told him track and field day would only happen if the weather permitted it. He took the schedule as a promise. When it didn't happen, he was betrayed. It was supposed to happen. He can't even wrap his head around why he would be told it was going to happen, when it ended up not happening, and he may feel he was lied to. To prevent those types of situations from happening you'll find it helps a LOT if you learn to speak more conditionally and precisely: "tomorrow will be field day but it depends on weather and other conditions staying right for it." This level of detail will also help him see you as more truthful, which will allow him to begin sorting out the social rules on lying better. AS kids are extremely literal, and we need to speak more precisely in order for them to see US as truthful.

The bus ... it doesn't sound like a good situation for him. AS kids get controlling about seats, etc., when they are stressed by their environments. School buses are, by and large, upsetting places for AS kids (noisy, unpredictable kids; less adult supervision). Is it possible to drive him instead? Basically, reduce the number of opportunities he has in his day to fail. Make it easier for him to succeed, so that he'll believe more in his ability to succeed. Does that make sense?

I realize I've tripped over some of my own sentences a bit, but I hope it makes sense. You'll find you get a very different perspective here, but I think it is a very useful one. Welcome!

Thanks for the replies. I guess at this point we just have to ride it out and hope that something clicks. It's just getting so frustrating because we can't believe anything that he says at this point and have to double check everything when he's not in our immediate care. This weekend was another example... he was at his relatives for the weekend and we had sent a cooler with him with all his meals because he's on a gluten-free/casein-free diet. He came home saying he ate a bunch of things not on his diet. Of course we called and found out that yes, they did blow it by giving him cereal that wasn't on his diet and some gum, but he talked about cheeseburgers, fries, candy, etc. He even said they told him not to tell us. Now this causes an issue because maybe they wanted to treat him and did let him have foods that they knew weren't ok because they don't see it as important or "a little treat won't kill him" with the ever famous "this is our little secret". You know how grandparents are. After we called we asked him if he had those foods and he admitted to not telling the truth, but I'm still wondering if he's covering for them because he confused or he thinks he won't get treats there next time, etc. All this lying is making me crazy.

Speaking of the track and field day, yes if the school would have said that it might not happen because of the weather we ALL could have avoided the meltdown, but they didn't and when I tried to explain it to him so that he wouldn't have a bigger meltdown at school he couldn't accept it. That's why I was saying I think he was saying those things because he wanted them to be reality and because his teacher never said otherwise. Then when I tried to relate the weather to what normally happens he wouldn't have it.

Yes, we are driving him now which he hates and is now causing tantrums because he wants to ride the bus like all the other kids. Sigh.

Aren't burgers (without the bun) and fries GFCF?

I do understand that not knowing what is true gets difficult, but your son also has a complicated life. He isn't like other kids, and he can't even eat like other kids (has the diet made a clear difference for him?). It's totally normal for kids, and not just AS kids, to develop a much stronger fantasy life when their world is too far out of sync with the reality they think they should have. A friend of my son's was a huge offender clear through 5th grade, that kid barely ever spoke a truth, but it was so obviously wishful thinking that no one got mad at the child, and we actually started to farm the fantasies for ways to help him (for example, after hearing so much about all the great sports teams he was playing, I sat down with his mom and actually got him on a sports team. She worked 3 jobs and couldn't drive, so I offered to do it. All.) Sometimes lying is part of a child's effort to make sense of life, and you'll continue to have trouble with it until you've helped the child resolve some of the conflicts he perceives.

I know it's complicated to have to keep your own eye on everything, but most likely it is just a phase. Model precise and literal truthfulness, don't force him into polite lies, and be patient.

Hi There -

He's a little kid with a really tough time fitting in the real world into how he sees things should be. It must be really frustrating for you BUT I can kind of understand it. Now that you know this is where he his, you need to let go of the idea that it should be different. You need to accept that "it is what it is" and then work from there. Instead of being frustrated with every "lie", be joyus at each success. It will make your life easier.

When we talk about issues like this with our DS, I have to be really gentle because "being in trouble" will cause a meltdown every time. So what do you do? We talk about how others "see" things. So for instance using the rain coat as an example. Answering, "I don't think that's what they meant". With our kids, you never really know what they hear - so are they lying or just wrong all the time. School might have said - "Field day is cancelled, we can't have you all doing sport in your raincoats" and then that was perceived as "you will all be doing sport in your raincoat".

Can you imagine how frustrating it would be to be wrong all the time? About the dietary issues - you may want to dig a little deeper on that one. Why did he tell you he had those foods, because he had them, because he's telling you he wants them, or he knows that you won't let him go without you if you think he'll eat bad?

I am frustrated because I would like to try a similar diet with DS, but at least for me, I know that without his buy in it would fail. So, for now we are waiting until he is mature enough to make healthy decisions. I have some friends who's children have fatal allergies and they just can't leave their kids with other people until they really understand and have internalized the required process. This meant home schooling for one friend until fourth grade (this is a child with no delays).

You mentioned that your son has the communication maturity of a 5 yo. Why are you arguing about lying with a 5yo? I'm not trying to be cheeky. If your son is functioning on a 5 YO maturity level you need to reason with him as if he is a 5 YO.

Much of what you described sounds familiar. My daughter always has to be first and throws tantrums when she makes mistakes and is asked to correct them. Bottom line - you need to his reasons why.

Have you asked him why it is bad to be last in line?
Have you asked him why a certain seat is so important?

ASD kids are logical to a fault. Many are also VERY focused on things being fair. It sounds as if you need to get to the core of each behavioral issue. My impression of what you described about his field day disappointment sounds like transition issues. He was all hyped up and had a very hard time of letting go of his expectations. My daughter also does this to a degree. We regularly think ahead. If something scheduled looks as if it is going to fall through, or if it looks like rain on field day, we prepare her for the possiblity days in advance and bring it up daily - in small ways just to reinforce that the possible change could come. We also give bedtime warnings, dinner warnings, showertime warnings. We are down to just a single 15 minute warning now that she is 9 but we started with 4 warnings starting at an hour in advance, every 15 minutes. It took a good 2 years to get down to the single warning but now, transitions - all of them, not just the expected ones - come easier with much less distress on her part. If it was something she wasn't real excited about - she can just blow it off like any other kid now. My daughters field day was cancelled and rescheduled twice in the past week so I feel your pain! The first time she was grumpy - but it was expected because it rained all week. Then, it unexpectedly rained on Monday and was cancelled that morning - all the kids came to school dressed for field day. She handled that one like a champ. Crossing our fingers for Friday.

Bottom line - you need to know WHY he has these reactions before you can do anything to work past them. Treating the symptoms without knowing the cause will only result in relapse after relapse. Talking to him about his feelings doesn't introduce the opportunity to put a lie to work in his favor. If you leave a loophole in your discipline system, trust me, he'll find it. Finding out why he gets angry, helping him identify that feeling as it occurs and then teaching him other strategies to vent it is the strategy I've used with my daughter with, what I consider, success.