Alternative Education Approaches

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I started this thread in School and College Life but want to cast a wider net:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt172021.html

Basically, I'm trying to decide if the new age alternative program my son has been placed is likely to work out OK. Right now, I really don't like it, but I'm trying to keep an open mind and cover all my bases before taking action. I have generally found that when educators say "trust us," they've had good reason to. I just really need to know more.

As background, my son has done well in traditional schooling. I've blown a few gaskets about unfair (to us) grading rubrics, but he pulled straight A's for his last semester of 8th grade, had through the roof excellent standardized test scores, and would have gone without any learning lab (the extra support class for IEP students) this year if the High School had let him. He has to work extra hard on a few things, as he always will, and struggles socially, but he has made the choice to take on high achieving academics, and wants to build the strongest college resume possible. His biggest academic hurdle was with writing, and that hurt a lot of his early grades in middle school (there were mental hurdles in addition to the physical ones the IEP could address), but once he got confident on the keyboard, he took off. We're not looking for anything "special" from the school for him at this point, beyond the standard IEP accommodations he'll always carry (being able to take a computer to school being primary), but of course do want him to be in the best environments possible.

As you know I have no real world experience in this area as your son is older than mine. As of now, our high schools are very traditional. There is the typical college path course work. Kids can take AP classes or not, choose electives etc. depending on interests and long term goals.

From what you describe, it sounds like some classes I had in college. I can see it as a positive if that is how they are managing it in high school. It is very real world and could better prepare students for college work and it would be helpful in certain careers. However, although I am not an Aspie and am very outgoing, I detest group projects. I think they are great if you are in a class of high achievers, but when it is kids thrown together, it is always an opportunity for the slackers to do nothing as the good students will pull their load. I was a business major and had a lot of this crap in my last year of college. If I could pick my own group, I was fine, but if the teacher chose groups, I hated it. I hate my grade to ride on someone else's commitment.

As for my son, I think it would depend. I would say most of the time, he has his own ideas and would struggle in that environment. However, if he is with other kids that are equally motivated and interested in a topic, I have seen him value their ideas and work together to come up with better ideas. However, I only see this working if the class was a group of like minded, motivated kids. That isn't the case in most high schools. I would even be less reluctant to do a program like this during its first year. I would rather see how its is implemented and its success before making that commitment.

I am such an educational traditionalist though. My boys have always been ahead in math, so we have taught them before they learned in school. of course, we have taught them the old school way and the teachers have these idiotic, backward ways of teaching them now. It drives me crazy.

I hope it does work out for you though. With the right mix of kids, I can see how a group of kids could really grow in a class like that.

It is a smattering of education abilities, including many under-achievers whose parents are hoping the non-traditional approach will help their kids learn. My son very much fears being hitch-hiked off. In middle school group work, He often ended up doing all the work simply because other team members failed to meet deadlines that the whole group had set together. As you said, when the teachers assigned the groups, they were always horrible. If he got to pick his own, the experience varied by his luck in getting the partners he wanted (which, as an AS child, was definitely not guaranteed). I just find it so odd that they purposely put most of their IEP kids in this. My cynical side says it's their way of getting out of being asked to offer social skills classes (which we weren't going to do anyway).

I did raise an eyebrow at your mention of other with IEPs being in there too. I wondered if it was to be a dumping ground for them, but then you said they were of like abilities, so I thought perhaps not.

I think this seems like a big jump for most Freshman. I think it would be good preparation for college, but it seems like something better suited for Juniors and Seniors.

How did they pick who would try this program? Are GT kids in there? Was it anyone who wanted to try it? Or did they pick?

Oops, I just noticed the underachievers. Personally, that would send up red flags. If my Aspie wasn't learning with a traditional school approach, I would certainly try it and see if it clicked with him. However, if the current, traditional path had been working, I would probably not have wanted to mess around with success. Granted, it is something he will have to do in college, but at least there are fewer coat tail riders in college. Personally, I feel the fewer group projects, the better, so my plan would have been to avoid them as much as possible.

My BIL and SIL have their older elementary kids in a great magnate program that is non-traditional, but it is obviously worth it and everyone tries to get their kids into it. In middle and high school, nothing similar is available, so they are in a more traditional setting again then. To me the key there is everyone wants to bein it and the only ay to get in it is by lottery. It seems like in this instance, everyone wants to opt out.

There have been two times I wished I had asked for a new teacher for my kids. Once with my Aspie where we lived prior to here. He hadn't been diagnosed and she was old school. She hated everything about him. And again, when one of my trio was in Kindy and had the very nice, very very old and dotty grandmotherly teacher. Both times I hesitated and talked myself out of making a big deal and getting too pushy. With my Aspie, it colored his vision of teachers and school and we are still overcoming it. With my other son, he is technically the "baby" and that was the worst teacher for him in Kindy even though he loved her.

I learned my lesson and have realized I am a non-meddling mother most of the time. I do not helicopter like many parents these days. However, I do know when something won't work for my kids and I now won't hesitate to push very hard to get the necessary changes in the future. The two times I felt very strongly about this type of stuff and didn't push harder, I regretted it.

What does your son want? It sounds like he knows what will and won't work for him.

Good luck with your decision. Being a parent is so hard.

I would say that I am potentially for this, but it really all depends on how it is run.

I believe that I have mentioned this before on the forums, but I went to a technical academy for grades 11 and 12. It was called Oakland Schools Technical Center (Changed the name after I left):
http://www.ostconline.com/CLUSTERS/Engi ... fault.aspx

While there, it wasn't the typical school environment. There was few class periods, assignments, exams, or anything like that. What there was was 'modules', which were basically small projects, labs, or tasks. And if you wanted to get a certificate in something, you would just look up what modules you needed to get that certificate, and do those modules. So, if you wanted a certificate in Pre-Engineering (one of the two I got) then you would have to do some pneumatics modules, some hydraulics modules, some welding, some machining, some CAD work, etc. You basically just chose a module and got to work on it at your own pace. When you needed help, you would just ask one of the teachers and he would help you until understood what you were doing. Often times, you would do modules in small groups of people who were doing the same sort of thing, but you didn't have to group if you didn't want to.

When you had completed a module, you would get it checked off by a teacher. If you didn't do it properly, the teacher would go through it with you and show you how to do it properly. Students were graded based on their understanding and expertise rather then what they chose or how long they took. Overall, you were expected by the end of the 2 years to have achieved 1 major certificate in a field of your choice. And perhaps a few minor certificates in smaller related courses. Over achievers like myself would sometimes get 2 major certificates, the average person got just one, and the slackers would go 2 years and never even get a minor certificate. You weren't forced to do any work, and some students decided that they didn't want to bother so they never accomplished anything and as such never got any certificates for it.

The only real 'class' style was for mathematics and physics. For math, you really couldn't do it in a lab, so it was a standard classroom setting. I managed to test out of that and went to community college instead. But physics was an interesting blend of lecture, and then physics lab/experiments. It was about 50/50% time spent, which is a lot more then most schools. So, very hands on and interesting.

I would consider this to be a very student led, project oriented, and 'subject integrated' way of learning, and it worked well for me. And the ability to form groups and do projects together was a big plus if you had somebody who shared your interests and you worked well with. Furthermore, as you were able to go at your own pace, the progress wasn't slowed down by people who didn't want to do their end of the work. So, you didn't have to worry about the 'mooching' problem. Overall, if your son is in a similar class style, I say give it a chance. It is a bit unusual, and takes some time to get used to, but it is really nice.

As for the 'group projects', this can either be a good thing, or a bad thing. What really makes group projects good or bad is the quality of the leader. A good leader can take any group of people, and have them work together, and learn effectively in a cooperative fashion. What makes a leader good is that the other team members respect him enough to follow his lead. Also, the team leader should know what he is doing, how to accomplish the tasks, and how to work the issues that may arise. It also helps if this leader is mature enough to avoid petty personality squabbles and settle disputes between the people he is leading.

An excellent example for this is boy scouts, or sports teams. In these events, the group is lead by somebody who knows what they are doing (i.e. the scout master or the coach). Furthermore, the team members will respect the leader enough to follow what the leader says, and listen to him when he explains things or settles problems. I am not saying that the team leader should make all the decisions and tell others what to do. But they will provide insight, and help arbitrate disagreements between the members. And if one of the students is not pulling their weight then the leader will give more attention and get them up to speed. And if the child refuses to put forth any effort, then they get off the team.

I never did boy scouts or sports, but I did participate in FIRST robotics (highly recommended for any high schooler interested in a technology field). And each team was led by a teacher with several adult volunteers for the sub teams. For the most part, the teachers/volunteers stayed out of the process and let the students decide what they wanted to do. But the teachers did make sure everything was organized, communication was effective, and disputes were resolved in an effective way. Which let the students learn, while still keeping order. This sort of arrangement allows the students to work together cooperatively, and also learn how to lead properly by having a good example to follow. It helps to prevent immaturity from ruining progress, and also teaches the students how to work through disagreements in an effective manner. Overall, its a good thing.

As far as I am concerned, the two years I spent at the technical center, and doing the FIRST robotics were the only 2 good years of my k-12 education. And if your son has an opportunity to do the same, I highly recommend it.

However, that being said, that only worked out well for me because it was run well. I could see the exact same concept working out horribly if it was run poorly. For example, many of the 'team projects' that I had to work on in school were basically the teacher saying, "Here, you 4, get to work on this project, and turn it in when your done." Inevitably, 2 of the 4 students would just nod their heads, and then do nothing. And since you weren't the leader, you couldn't talk to the 2 students and get them to pick up the slack. If you talked to the teacher, then you would just get, "Go work it out on your own" as a stock response, which was impossible as half the team wasn't willing to work. And for the two that were willing to work, the fact that they were teenagers meant they hadn't yet developed enough maturity to effectively sort out disagreements in ideas. I know that I certainly wasn't nearly as understanding, compromising, and patient as a teenager as I am today.

Today I can work out a disagreement with my fellow coworkers because we are both mature people who are working towards a common goal. But in school, the maturity isn't quiet there, and it only takes 1 immature person to make a disagreement unsolvable. So even if your child is mature, it doesn't mean the other person is. And often times, the students aren't working towards a common goal. One student may be working towards a good project, while the other is working on doing the least work possible. In other words, informal teams working on projects can do well in business amongst mature adults, but it is a disastrous effort for high school.

Likewise, the 'project based' aspect can be a good thing or a bad thing. As with me, a lot of the work I did was 'project based' but there were instructions, and guidelines, and steps to follow. In other words, if you got lost, there was a manual. And if you didn't understand the manual, there was a teacher to ask for clarification. For the more open ended problems like 'design a robot' for the FIRST team, there was a lot of mentor involvement that helped you figure out what to focus on, what to consider, what was possible, where to start from, etc. It wasn't as though you were just left hanging in the wind to figure it out on your own with no help.

Today, I can deal with open ended problems like that (such as my work for my master's project). But it is only because I have years of experience with guidance that has taught me where to start, and what to look up, and what to keep in mind. I didn't just start doing projects all on my own. I learned how to do it by spending years watching how successful projects are organized, and thus learning how to organize effectively. But that wasn't a skill I had in 9th grade, yet I still got projects in 9th grade that assumed I did. I would get these open ended assignments with no clear steps, or guidelines, or anything, and have no idea how to go about solving them, and it didn't turn out well.

So, all that to say, project based, team work style, education can be a useful thing as it is what taught me to learn how to do projects effectively. But just giving your child a open ended project with no support, steps, or instructions, and expecting him to work with fellow students with no clear leadership or guidance is a recipe for disaster. So, the idea may work out, but it really depends on how it is run.

I suggest setting a mental deadline for the "trial period", perhaps 1 or 2 weeks, no more than a month. How hard will it be to switch back to traditional school?

I get the impression from your posts that there's this thinking by the district that "project-based instruction is great for spectrum kids" rather than looking at your son as an individual. You and your son had an initial gut reaction against it, and you had to be talked into it. Your son was succeeding in the traditional setting, and it sounds like he's willing to put in the extra work he has to do in order to succeed there. The new school will be going through growing pains, and you could always switch back in later once they've worked out the kinks.

We met with the teachers yesterday and are still confused. But there is no "try it for a while." The curriculum will be ordered very differently and they want kids either in it with a two year commitment, or out of it. The one thing that is clear is that the really really really really want to keep my child in this program, and believe that the advantages of the team teacher approach will outweigh any potential disadvantageous. They meet among themselves each week just to discuss student issues from that group, and they believe that is a huge advantage for the IEP kids. They agree that the student teamwork on high stakes projects is challenging, but plan to be teaching the kids to work together, not just leaving them to it, and feel that they are mostly copying the classroom approach that has become prevalent in colleges, so that these kids will be better prepared. They felt that my son showed amazing leadership in the early team building exercises the class did (he's done them before, he has Boy Scout leadership training) and appears more than ready and able to do this. And so on, and so on.

There was a lot of talk about letting my son stretch beyond his comfort zone, that he should be ready, etc. But as I told them, that frightens me. Everything we do with AS kids is about contracting INTO their comfort zone, identifying and mitigating stress factors, being sensitive to their needs, conforming the environment to them. That is what you have to do if you want to have any chance of mitigating meltdowns, even if it doesn't work for all kids. It did work for my son, and he got the space he needed to develop coping mechanisms. He manages himself really well. Maybe too well ... We did figure he was doing well enough to start pulling out the extra IEP supports, get him as close to "normal" as possible ... but to start putting him outside his comfort zone for personal development? Really scary thought. Yet they believe this is a good thing, and promise they are watching every step of the way and won't take it too far. I NEVER want to go back to the world of meltdowns. There are no guarantees no matter what we do, but I've been cautious for many years for a reason. But what if the time for that really is over, and if caution at this point just holds him back? He's got big goals, and I know that his career choices WILL require him to work in teams.

My son is not convinced or unconvinced. He is finding this program "weird" and it makes him uncomfortable. It blurs the lines of the little boxes he likes sorting his life into. But at this point it is more the devil he knows than plan B would be, which is going to the traditional classrooms at the same school. He's confused, too.

Basically, all we really know is that the teachers believe in this experiment. REALLY believe in it.

Man, I hate being the test subjects! And in the first year at a new school! No one to ask, no history of experiences to fall back on. No knowledge of what it is like elsewhere at the school. We're just blind.

Sounds like an especially painful, critical/important decision-making moment. Good luck with the process.

One thing I did think was that if your son is being required to spend a lot more time and energy on social interaction as part of his academic work then I could see him needing a lot more "down-time" to recover from that.

In light of the increased social interaction involved does the school have a system of allowing children extra/supplementary ( and genuinely peaceful ) "study-periods" or "leave" ( to go home ) when there is no actual timetabled class, when your son could take a breather, "resource", and concentrate on the aspects of his academic work which he manages better when on his own or in fact *needs* to be on his own to handle ( at all or most effectively )?

The other thing I thought was that pêrhaps your son already has fairly clear goals, or evident talents, and some idea of what he wants to do as a career ... if he has is it the sort of career which demands well-honed social/teamwork skills, or is it one which demands mostly very impressive academic results which your son needs lots of time alone, etc to achieve?

Best wishes.
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Another thing: When his teachers praise his excellent/impressive "leadership skills" what kind are they referring to?

Do they mean the sort that teachers love which is being very able and articulate at telling other children what to do, having lots of good ideas, etc, ( which I had at that age, when I felt confident and supported enough to do ), but which do not necessarily en-able others to think for themselves, in which the others in a group simply end up doing what they are told to, because it is easier, and some will end up hitch-hiking in the long-term because they feel excluded from the decision-making process, invisible except as "pawns", ( which is very demotivating )?

Or did he exhibit the sort of leadership which invites others to genuinely contribute to decisions, in which work delegated is not just grunt work keeping all the fun creative stuff for him and one or two others, but tasks which "fit" for them, which they can identify with, in which all feel like real participants so that are inspired to work hard at a project?

If your son is good at involving others in decision-making, or at least in making compromises to his vision in response to the others, such that the whole team remains engaged and active then hitch-hiking is less likely, and he will not end up having to work twice as hard to complete projects, but if he is only good at the sort of leadership, which teachers have a tendency to admire/value, in which he has lots of ideas and is good at telling the others what to do then he can expect to suffer from hitch-hiking. I was personally very bad at compromise, at accepting others' input, without shutting down/becoming passive myself, opting-out of activity in choices which I didn't entirely agree with.

*If* the teachers are aware of the difference it still isn't a disaster if your son is like me in that respect because they *may* know how to teach the more inclusive sort of leadership, ( including how to compromise while remaining engaged! eek! :lol ) which would be a big plus in adult life/work. But if the teachers are like mine at that age, impressed by my creativity and ability to lead, without seeing that I often dis-abled others with my enthusiastic well-intentioned dogmatism, then the whole scheme may be a big mistake if as you say there are several children in it with problems/difficulties who might rely on your son to carry them, and he will be more likely to burn out.

Best wishes again with the decision, and your son's next step.
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I would be so scared being the first too. I hope the program is everything they promised. If they deliver on their promises, it could be a wonderful opportunity.

If it were me, I think I would be very encouraged by this idea: