Do teachers know the definition of discipline?

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Apparenly not! My son's classroom teachers have been really good about following our IEP and sending him to resource if they have had a problem with him in class where he can work out the social skill (usually him annoyed at the teacher about something and "talking to himself" outloud about the teacher right in front of her, which they don't like of course.) However, the other teachers that are on duty during recess are seem to make the most idiotic rules. Today my son received 5 minutes of think track for needing to go to the bathroom during recess. Think Track is where they have the kid walk in a circle for an allotted amount of time during recess for infractions. They use it more in younger grades. We have it in his IEP to only use it for a true behaviour problem because the school handed it out for everything last year and it has no effect on him. The district's autism specialists in our IEP meeting told them it wasn't effective for him. He hasn't gotten it often this year, mostly because when I mentioned it to his teachers, they both said they don't do Think Track as they feel there are better methods to handle classroom problems. Thankfully, he has gotten it only a handful of times this year and it is usually from a special's teacher or the recess teachers.

Apparently these teachers have a rule that if a kid needs to leave recess to go to the bathroom, they get think track. Realize these are 4th graders who have the freedom to go to the bathroom during class alone all the time. My son is almost 10 1/2 and has not had a problem with asking to go to the bathroom excessively or dawdling in the bathroom. The 4th graders get an official bathroom break after recess to wash up before they the go to lunch, so it isn't as if he had a break just before recess. He said he has never asked to go during recess so far this year. When he asked today, the teachers asked him if it was worth 5 minutes of think track. He told me he agreed because he had to go really bad. My son is not upset about it. He does think it was dumb and I told him not to worry about it. His NT twin says he has had to go before but just holds it until after recess, so it is a rule for all the kids.

I am thinking about mentioning it to the vice principal. I have grounds to call them on it since we have very detailed language about Think Track in his IEP. No, it didn't hurt him, but he gets into enough trouble at school for not keeping his thoughts to himself, which is our number one hurdle this year and is obviously an important skill he needs to learn to get along in school and later work. It would help and give him a lot more respect for them if they didn't punish him for idiotic reasons like bathroom breaks. If he thinks they are idiots, he is going to want to complain out loud about them more.

I'm in Scotland, so I don't know what "recess" is.

This situation, and the think track thing sound daft to me, although my son would've loved think track when he was a bit younger! Being told to go round in circles!! !

It's pretty well established that children can suffer short - long-term psychological and physical harm from not being allowed, or fearing to ask, to go to the toilet at school. I do understand that some children will ask repeatedly for no good reason, and to muck about, but any reasonable adult should give a child the benefit of the doubt and teachers should know which children are regular 'offenders' and which aren't.

No one, child or adult, should be humiliated or disciplined because they need to use the toilet. If I were you, I'd complain to the school about this one, not just on behalf of your son, but on behalf of all the children.

Think track also sounds dumb too? How is that a punishment. Even Lunch detention was silly for me because I didn't see a problem eating in the classroom with the teacher. Then in high school, we had a thing called Another teacher Moment where kids are sent with a paper to fill out and they go to another classroom and fill out what they did wrong in class, why they were sent there. That never made sense to me either and wondered how that is supposed to be effective.

@Marcia. What do they call where kids go outside to play on the playground during school hours? Here we call that a recess.

What sane, decent person punishes any one for having to go to the bathroom. Do they also punish the kids when the kids go in their pants, because they weren't allowed to use the facilities. "Mom", if you have any sense at all, you will demand that this policy of punishing kids who need to use the bathroom, be permanently stopped. If the school refuses, see a lawyer, and look for another school. I am pretty sure it is illegal for them to keep the kids from using the facilities.

If any kids are abusing the visits to the facilities, all the staff has to do is have one of them go to the bathroom with the kid, to make sure the kid isn't just horsing around.

When I was growing up, we kids were yelled at if we threw up before getting to the toilet. I was occasionally incontinent when young and was yelled at for that. Also, I have IBS which means I am in the bathroom a long time. I got yelled at for that, too. And when I was very young I remember my parents being very annoyed if they had to help me find a bathroom when we were out. Also, when I was growing up, my father would punish any of our dogs that threw up or went to the bathroom in the house. Although the punishment wasn't severe, I always knew it was wrong. Dogs can't open the door to take themselves out, and we never had a doggy door at any of our homes. Once I was an adult and no longer lived with my father, I never punished any of the dogs I had when they threw up or went to the bathroom in the house. I admit that I would some times say EEEUUU! or make a loud disgusted noise, but I never punished them. They can't help it, so punishment is inappropriate, and cruel.

I think my father finally mellowed with age. The last dog he and my step mom had became incontinent both ways once she became very old, and she also threw up sometimes. They didn't punish her when she made messes indoors, except to maybe say a few complaining words upon finding the mess, and while cleaning it up. I had to clean up after the dog myself when I dog sat for them a few times. The dog was senile by that time, and would sometimes forget to go while outside, but would then go shortly after coming in. For all her geriatric problems, she was still a friendly dog. I will never feel it is right to punish people or pets for having a bowel, bladder, or tummy problem.

One dog I had while living with my older brother and mother, occasionally forgot to tell us she had to go out and tinkle, but we never punished her. She also used a big scrap of carpet by the front door as an indoor outhouse when the remnants of Hurricane Floyd hit our area. From late Tuesday until Friday she refused to leave the house, but at least she picked just the one place indoors to go. I think she deliberately limited herself to that. She was not punished for this. The weather was terrible, and a couple of people in our area drowned from the storm. Unfortunately, this dog was also a bit of a naughty type. After the storm, my brother cleaned the scrap of carpet as best he could, and then draped it over the top of our shed to let the fresh air and sun air it out. The dog, finding she could just reach the edge of the carpet if she stood on a pile of scrap wood by the shed, managed to grab it. She had a lot of fun dragging it through the muddy and dog pooped yard. It had to be cleaned again after that. For that she was scolded, but not for her bathroom problems.

The school punishment you described sounds pretty ineffective, silly, and pointless, besides being uncalled for. Do make sure the school stops punishing all of the kids when they need to use the bathroom. And remember, we on the spectrum are all:

A Different Drummer

If a man does not keep pace with his companions,
Perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.
Let him step to the music which he hears,
However measured or far away.

--Henry David Thoreau

I'm going to make a serious suggestion. You should take it seriously--as in DO IT.

Tell both your kids that next time they have to go to the bathroom during recess and the teachers won't let them they should PULL DOWN THEIR PANTS AND PISS ON THE GROUND. No, piss on the TEACHERS. That's what they deserve for being a**holes. Maybe that will teach them a lesson.

You should call the school about this, it is a very very strange policy,

What the heck??? This is really stupid. I would talk to the teacher or the principal or a counselor up there with whom you have good rapport and let them know and ask for advice on how to handle this. They might have a simple solution and it is just a matter of notifying the lunch ladies. i think because of privacy considerations (or maybe laziness) they do not notify everyone at the school who is in contact with your child about "his deal."

If you have to, you can escalate it, and call an ARD meeting so you can edit the IEP to specifically state that "think track" not be used at recess and that any discipline situations be referred to the classroom teacher after the fact(or at least minor ones like bathroom breaks.) I really don't think they would even bother wasting the teacher's time with this bathroom nonsense, and if they do, his teacher can disregard it.

Asking to go to the bathroom is not something any child should be punished for. Ever. If for some reason it's not possible to go right then, ie; on the bus or during one of those rigid exams where you cannot leave, then simply denying them the opportunity to go is punishment enough, don't you think? Recess isn't something that a kid can't miss ten minutes of to go pee. It's not like the teacher is explaining a very intricate and important theory that must be mastered before they can move on to another level.

You should talk first to the teacher, and if you get no results, then to the principle or vice principle, however your school has it set up. If you get no satisfaction, you might want to consider talking to someone at your local news station. Here, they have segments about schools. What's right with them and also what's wrong with them. They won't use your childs name of course, but they could do a story on kids being given punishment for asking to go to the bathroom.

I could see them punishing him if he just walked to the corner of the playground and peed there, but he did the responsible thing. I've told my kids that if they ever really, REALLY have to go, and are about to have an accident, and the teacher won't let them, to just walk out and go. Then come back and explain that I told them to do that to prevent an accident. If need be, the school can call me. It's happened once. My oldest son had to do that. I was worried that they would abuse that privelage of me standing up for them breaking the rules, but they didn't. I explained that if they did abuse it, they would be punished at home also and I wouldn't go to bat for them like that. If you think your child could do this without abusing that privelage, then I'd suggest trying it. I'd also inform the teacher that you told him to do that if he absolutely had to and to call you before punishing for that.

As for your question in the subject line, no most dont. That's a big disctinction and one that is one of my pet peeves.

Discipline is controlling behavior and resisting urges and desires. Adults teach children discipline. Sometimes they have to use punishment as a consequence for not following through. The desired results of teaching discipline is having self discipline.

Punishment is the loss of privelages, work that is specifically assigned, or in some cases physical punishment such as spanking. Punishment is the result of lack of discipline, either because it wasn't taught or the child hasn't mastered it yet. The level of punishment should depend on the child's capability and understanding of the particular aspect of discipline that is being taught.

I hate it when those two words are confused. I'm the aspie in the family.

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I always thought punishment and discipline were the same thing.


But can the kids go to the bathroom right when they get to school, right before recess or right after it ends, right before lunch or during lunch? So that way they wouldn't worry about having to go to the bathroom.

Teachers in my school have always had certain rules about using the bathroom. Like you had three passes in each class and if you use them all up during the quarter, you can't leave the classroom. It would bug me when kids complain about having to go pee and I suggested they wear diapers or give themselves a potty schedule like go right when they get to school, go between two classes, go during lunch, go again between two classes so that way they wouldn't have to go during class because they be keeping their bladders empty. Me doing this, I never had to feel I had to use the bathroom again in school.

Everyone just expects us to hold it. It's always been that way in school. They want you to go sooner but the thing is you didn't need to go before so that is why you should help your child make a potty schedule so they wouldn't have to go during class. Go right when they get to school, go right before going outside for recess or after as they are going back to class, go right during lunch, go right before going to recess again or on the way back to class.

I can remember mom making my brothers and I going to the bathroom sometimes even when I didn't need to go. She and dad didn't want to stop again if any of us had to go so they made us go when they had to go and every time I would try to go, I had to go every time and I just didn't feel it.

I'm with everyone else. This is the most absurd policy I've ever heard. Which leads me to conclude there was probably a trigger that established it: either a staffing issue, a janitorial issue, or a past bullying-in-the-bathrooms issue. Find out what that trigger was, and you can make your challenge to the rule much more effective.

League Girl, it doesn't bother me if a discipline technique isn't upsetting to a child, because it can still be effective. With my son, for example, what he really needs is to calm down and sort his thoughts when conflicts have happened, so any consequence that includes some calm, thoughtful time will be effective. We actually changed our language to stop making most consequences sound like punishment, and to direct him to what we wanted him to do during the consequence. When he is simply being intentionally "bad" then a negative consequence is appropriate, but most of the time the real issue is either impulse control, emotional regulation, or simple misunderstanding, in which cases time to think and clear makes more sense.