why so stubborn?

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I am trying to understand my 4 year old daughter. There are days when she want to control so much of me, i feel exhausted trying to not falling prey to her machinations. Why does she do this? Temperament wise am most relaxed and on good days she is a darling with a great sense of humor and mischief. But then some days, 4 out of 7 a week she becomes this extremely stubborn, controlling child that I worry it will be part of her character forever and she will find it hard to build relationships.

Since she is just 4 and won't explain this complex stuff... I'd like to know from adults with Autism if this sort of controlling of people and environment is common and if it makes them feel more secure/safe? What could be driving her to do this? Will it wear off as she grows up? I hope it doesn't intensify!

moved from General Autism Discussion to Parents' Discussion to get good advice for you

How does she control you?

My younger son with the OCD has a heavy need to control his environment, not just me. He also has separation anxiety and is still dependent upon me to help him put on his shoes and remember to go potty. I wouldn't say that he is trying to control me, but his need for my help and presence and need for sameness can be very difficult.

He is currently on Prozac by day and Clonidine at night for anxiety, which has helped a lot. He is also working with an ABA therapist (B.A. and M.A. in psychology and specialization in working with kids with autism).

How does your daughter try to control you?

my son tries to control EVERYTHING!! ! He tries to change every direction, he tries to dictate rules and regulations, he tries to put a twist on everything, and it is exhausting to say the least.

Sometimes it is great, he has a wonderful creative mind, and there is a time and place for it. But certain things cannot be controled and changed and it interferes with our life casue he tries and tried so hard to control everyting.

I wish I understood the need to control, I really do. I am not a controlling person, he has a lot of appropriate choices, but he wants to control every and anything.

So, I feel your pain and I wish I had answers. A huge part of my sons issues are his desperate need to control. I feel like maybe that gives him a sence of calm or order?

Is she your only child? I understand that ASD plays a role in this in controlling things and comfort, but there is a reason 4 is known as the frustrating fours. Both of my kids went through this and one of my kids is NT and she was actually worse at 4 than the other one. Both outgrew it. Part of it may be a phase and not have anything to do with ASD.

Oh like right now she has refused to eat breakfast because there is a triangle piece amidst square pieces of bread. And I can hear her stomach growling... she hasnt eaten since last afternoon insisting on milk {I give her soy}. Other ways if I pick up something she'll say mommaaaa put it back. If i am humming a song, she will say noooo noooo not that song mumma sing this song. She dictates all the routes I take while driving, the colors I paint while painting, what she eats, how i eat. Not that I listen to her.... not at all. I keep ignoring, trying to reason, fighting it off, staying quiet, walking off. But man she is extremely persistent. And these are small examples but happens all day long!! ! Yesterday was great, we laughed together and played together but today morning began with some intense whining. What could have happened over night?

I never believed in this control thing. My childhood was in India where nothing is in anyone's control hee hee so it really beats me why my little one does this to me. I really hope it wears off if I ignore enough. Her teacher says she is not like this at school. Wonder what am I doing wrong. Is it because I am not the controlling type and not controlling her? I wouldn't like to be that kind of personality ever!

Has she been diagnosed with anything? Rigidity is an issue with many kids on the spectrum, but there are other diagnoses that have similar symptoms (OCD being a big one, as previously mentioned.) I'd ask the school about it, and let them know the particulars like you did here.

It sounds like OCD to me. I hope not because OCD generally does not go away on its own. It generally requires both medication for an anxiety (an SSRI antidepressant or another med that helps with anxiety) and counseling.

Both of my kids save some of their most difficult behaviors for me, I guess because I'm easier to manipulate. Also, their behavior gets better and worse depending upon their level of anxiety. Further, at school their is a lot of peer pressure to help keep kids in line. Finally, some teachers are not very perceptive, and with a whole bunch of kids to manage, may not notice abnormal behaviors that do not disrupt the class. (My older son with classic autism was allowed to purchase his lunch at school for over a year, for example, before anyone bothered to tell me that he would only eat a piece of bread from his tray, if anything, during lunchtime.)

I am now working with my younger son to eat more food. (He gets a piece of desired food for every piece of meat he eats, for instance). I also have a lot of food in my house that I know that my kids will eat. I'm trying to change their eating habits, but they will literally refuse to eat or undereat, resulting in vitamin deficiencies and growth issues, if I am not flexible on this. (I know this from experience. Both of my kids have been underweight at times, particularly when they have spent too much of the day away from home and parent-supervised feeding).

One mom with a four-year-old child with classic autism came over recently and became frustrated because her child's chocolate milk (his primary source of nutrition) had gone sour. I told her not to worry about it since I had three entire cases of chocolate milk in my own refrigerator. (Chocolate milk and cereal are the core of my younger son's nutritional intake). We also do chewable multivitamins and chewable calcium. Another mom that I know fed her autistic twins Lays potato chips all of the time because that it wat they would eat....

You might want to check out this page from my free website. It has several YouTube movies made by therapists and doctors on feeding issues and a link to an article on feeding issues:

http://www.freevideosforautistickids.co ... ssues.html

After you click on the first video in the series, some controls will appear at the bottom of the embedded YouTube video player. The black rectangle control allows you to move forward to another video in the playlist if you wish to skip around between the videos. There is also a control that allows you to fast forward the video that you are currently viewing.

The "feeding issues" section has just been added, and I'm still doing updates to my website as I find the time.

I don't know, she sounds like a 4 yo to me. She is just learning that she CAN have control over her environment (which includes you) so she is exercising those muscles. My NT son at 4 would dissolve into tears if you took a different route to the daycare lady's house.

I don't think ignoring is always the best answer. Take the triangle piece of toast out of the pile if it is preventing her from eating and she really needs to eat. Challenge her with things that have less impact. I mean if she hasn't eaten since yesterday afternoon, why are you wondering why she is cranky this morning? She's cranky because she hasn't eaten!

We try to make deals with some things so that DS can learn about give and take. For example, I'll let him choose a song to listen to if I can then choose the next song.

Pick your battles. Let her have her way about some things, especially if they aren't really that consequential. Does it really matter which route you take to get to school? Choose what is going to be non-negotiable (brushing teeth for example) and be consistent on those things.

This comment made me wonder what is different about school and home, and the first thing that came to mind is routine. School is routine driven. At home, even when we think we are following a routine, often subtle changes to us have big effects for our AS kids. Maybe a picture schedule with velcro tabs to change out the pictures to match the day would be helpful?

Someone else shared this article and I wonder if it would help explain some of your daughter's thought processes.

https://www.oneplaceforspecialneeds.com ... utism.html

Also, as AS is a developmental delay, it is important to realize that often our children go through normal developmental stages in some areas later than their peers. So, if she is four, is it possible she is developing a sense of control and identity typical of the NT 2 year old? Add in the factors above, a better vocabulary, and a good long term memory and you get a seemingly controlling/willful four year old. Choices can help with this developmental process, lots of little choices. Just be aware, some AS children may become overwhelmed by too many choices, so it depends on your child. Also, pick and choose the battles. For example, at my house, jackets must be taken. It is a choice to wear/not wear, and what color jacket to bring. (If the child has hyposensitivity and is not aware of the cold, this may not work for him. Adjust as necessary.)

Well from my understanding a lot of people with autism have trouble with things like change of routine and sensory issues....for instance for me what is regular volume for most might be too loud, or light that is tolerable for most is too bright. When I was younger and could not nessisarly just go somewhere else I would complain a lot about stuff like that.......it probably seemed controlling, but it was more those things caused me a lot of discomfort and anxiety so I could not help but insist lights be turned down or volume be turned down.

With the routine thing, she might be used to certain things and when something is amiss it might freak her out, so maybe look into what sorts of things might be triggering the 'controlling' behavior and figure out what sorts of things calm her down....maybe if she's too overwhelmed she needs a quiet place to cool off.

I don't think ignoring the thoughts and feelings of your child and hoping they grow out of it is the best approach......from what you describe It sounds like normal 4 year old behavior with sensory issues and possibly routine issues people with autism can have. Chances are shes not trying to control you.......the environment shes in is overwhelming for her and its difficult for her to deal with changes in routine, and sensory stimulus that causes discomfort......and that should be addressed and dealt with not ignored.

Also if shes not like that at school that probably means she does her best to be on her best behavior there, but once shes back in her comfort zone shes likely to let out any frustrations from the day and be too worn out to put on the act any longer.

She just ate good. I gave her time, didnt hurry her up for school as usual. We did some silly silly things, made up a very funny song and danced with sunglasses and hats welcoming summer since she didnt need a jacket today and laughed like nuts. Was supposed to reach school at 8:30 and reached at 10 But she ate and she went happy yaaaay !

Back to venting/ranting - Oh yes I totally believe in picking battles... if I battle at all that is I am not in a battle mode with everything that I stated Yes, certain things like brushing teeth is a must. And it really doesn't matter what route we take but when she keeps insisting on things like this constantly all day... kind of add up and make me wonder what's going on in her mind. There could be a reason I dont know about. Is it a personality thing or is it a 4yr old thing or is it ASD that she was diagnosed with? What is a problem and what is not. What behavior issues need to be addressed and what should I wait to let it pass as she grows up. What is a phase and what will stay. Where do I draw the lines. Therapists view everything as a problem. Friends family say don't worry too much, let her be. Very confusing at times

I love when people tell me pick your batles. My son can turn anything into a battle. I dont ask or engege in it, but he will do it all his own. he will do all the begging, pleading, and offering alternatives even if I dint engage with him. And when I dont engage he gets louder and louder and louder and more frantic. He will even argue when he gets what he asked for, he will ty to switch what he wants after he asks for it and I give it to him.

I know all kids do this to an extent, but when you have a kid who does this ALL DAY LONG...it is very tiring. There was a point in time, when my son was 4-5, that I didnt even want to talk to him casue EVERYITNG he turned into an argument. Even if I wasnt arguing WITH him. He still argued his point repeatedly.

Are there days when he is not so argumentative? A bit more cooperative perhaps? My daughter isn't so all days. there was a 'phase' when she asked me opposites of all the words there can be opposites of. Then she started using them to assert herself... and now applies to every single thing. its actually funny. so if i say wow what a good sunny day... she'll say nooo what a bad cloudy day! and so we go on and on all day. Someone says Hi! She'll say Bye! When she cries she says I am happy. At other times she'll go around with a big smile and say I am so sad. Friends have a good laugh, sometimes shake their heads and roll their eyes and I wonder how long this will last. Again, it is not a 'problem' but it can be if she sticks with it when she is 10. So do I address it, ignore it, reason out, wait it out?