I need some help with my pre-K daughter, suspected AS

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I always just thought she was quirky. But lately she has been acting out in her pre-K class to the point that I have had to pick her up from school mid day and the school demanded I have her evaluated by a psychologist. The psychologist suspects aspergers, she will have the full evaluation in a week or two. In the meantime I really need some suggestions for helping her to cope better at school if it is possible.

She is having three main problems.

1) She cannot always tolerate other children in her space. They are either interrupting what she is focussed on OR she is worried that they will interrupt her. Her solution is a practical one, she punches/pushes/kicks the other child. When asked she says, "He was going to touch my (insert object here)"

2) They rotate schedules at the pre school and switch between activites every 45-60 minutes. She has a very difficult time switching, particular if she liked the activity she was working on. She will usually refuse to change stations. Then when pressed she will act out as in #1. When asked, she says "I wanted to keep doing what I was doing"

3) when 1 or 2 happens, they discipline in the form of a break or time out. This causes her to fly into a rage or tantrum like event during which she is out of control and attempts to hurt herself or others and will often abuse anyone with in reach or objects like chairs, tables, etc. Anything. She will shriek un controllably and, at this point, often dissolves into rocking or flapping, or making very strange repetitive vocalizations. If she doesn't get quite to THAT level of excitement she will become horribly defiant, growl like an animal and may say things like "I don't care" and will cross her arms and curl up. When questioned about these events she says she either doesn't remember doing it OR that she could not stop.

Any advice? Get her out of there? Suggestions as to where to bring her? I can't quit my job, she has a toddler sister who would probably follow to the new care situation if that's what I need to do. I'm trying to hold out as long as I can, but my employer is getting very antsy at the amount of work I have missed...

i would get her an eval thru the school district if she is 3 or older! Where do you live?

When my DS was 4.5, he got kicked out of a prechool that used the "stations" concept, because he was having horrible meltdowns. Also, he wouldn't stay at any station for more than 2 minutes. Anyway, he did much better at a small church-run, half-day preschool with only 12 kids in the room. (24 kids and 2 teachers is a 12:1 ratio, but still 24 children physically there occupying space and making noise.) We delayed kindergarten for a year while pursuing a diagnosis. The school was very non-academic -- they did "letter of the week" during circle time, but did not try to teach the kids to write. Lots of developmental, play-based activities -- finger painting, etc. It also helped that his teacher was a part-time nanny for a boy with AS.

I would recommend having the school system do an eval and see if your daughter is offered a spot in their special needs preschool. If not, consider preschools with very small classes, and/or a nanny.

If the current school is willing to work with you, then a visual schedule of the stations your daughter will do that day, some flexibility as to when she changes station (letting her choose a "stopping point"), and/or 10, 5, 2, and 1 minute reminders that it's almost time to change station might help.

Maybe you could try a visual schedule. Take a picture of something to represent each part of the day, and each center choice (not just one for all centers). Put it together in a notebook. Get to school early every day and go over the schedule for the day. It would be good to do together with the teacher. Use a timer for the centers and remind her at 10 min 5 min etc. and verbally and visually remind hernof the change. at first this may create some anxiety, but for some it helps them emotionally prepare for the center. You also may want to write a social story about changing centers (a web search may find one already written). Time and patience are the key. Time outs may help her calm down, but if she doesn't know what to do with the thoughts and emotions, all the time outs in the world won't change the behavior. Talk out loud your thoughts at home when you have to stop doing something you like, and help her apply those thoughts to her own situations. For example. "I am really enjoying watching tv, but I have to brush my teeth. I would rather watch tv, but teeth have to be brushed. It's time to brush my teeth. I am a little sad that I might miss something on tv, but I know my favorite program will come on tomorrow at 5"

See we never had these issues till she started going to this preschool. At her old school they had a schedule, but it was the same everyday. I'm seriously considering sucking it up and sending her back there... I took them out because it was very costly and they didn't have a good learning curriculum. Both of my kids are really bright so I moved them to an acreditted school. She has the occasional serious melt down at home but not often. I think it's because I learned a long time ago to give her warnings 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 1 minute. I am fairly certain that they do give warnings before switching activities, but I will get there early tomorrow and find out for sure and try to talk over putting together a visual schedule (I'm more than happy to do it as long as they give me a schedule). Unfortunately these places are short on flexibility. The kids are sheep, they all go together. Also with her if you give her flexibility she will just stay there.

I'm actually going to have to write this stuff down for them because her teachers usually aren't there when I get there in the morning.

How do I get an eval through the school district? I have no clue how to do that, is there an association I should look for?

Are you in the US? If you are, then call the administration office of your local school district.

Www.wrightslaw.com

If you are in the US, try searching on your state's dept of education or health and human services websites. Here we have Child Development Centers other states have Regional Centers. You can also contact your local public school district. Their responsibility actually begins BEFORE a child gets to kindergarten.

I'm not a parent. But... looking back on the time I spent in school, undiagnosed (this was in the 1960s) I was a lot like your daughter. (Only, instead of punching kids to get them to back off, I used "boogers" to keep them at bay. That's a long story*, but it worked, which was the point for me.) I got into trouble with a lot of teachers - only the ones who discovered I was smart and thought that was enough reason to figure out how to work with me ever did me any good. And the others... did a lot of harm.

Please, get the poor kid out of there. I can tell you why she's having a meltdown when she's punished. To her, it's totally unreasonable. And I agree with her. Even today, messing with my focus will put me in a foul mood, I do not switch tasks readily unless I'm prepared to do so, etc. For a kid that young, a school routine like that is torture.

And the more I was forced to try to act like everybody else, the more harm it did. Why? Because that's not how my mind works. Forcing me to pretend otherwise only confused the heck out of me. Literally, I'm in my fifties and I still struggle with figuring out what is reasonable and what is not, because of those days, when I became so confused that I swung from one extreme to another, either assuming that everyone was an evil monster - or that I was horrible and should allow anyone to do anything to me. There was no middle ground, because I was so horribly pressured to be what I was not that I couldn't figure out anything that made sense. Either it was absolute rebellion, or absolute self-destruction. I'm still battling with the aftereffects of that, and I'd hate to think of some poor little kid going through what I did.

* Just in case this helps you understand your daughter's mindset any more, I'll explain. You can skip it if you don't care. One of my sensory issues is the fact I cannot stand 'canned' air, or any limitation of my airflow. If my nose is only slightly blocked, I'll notice and it will drive me crazy (colds and flus and such are torment), so when I was about your daughter's age, I'd simply dig out the offending lumps and flick them on the ground / floor. Which caused the other kids to make a huge fuss, which taught me it was a useful way to keep them from bothering me, so even if I didn't have any "ammo", I'd pretend I did. My parents got endless letters home, but nobody could figure out how to stop me.

To the OP, I hope you understand we aren't all ready to jump on you. But I really do think what you mentioned about putting her back in the school that was working out sounds like the best option. I'm sorry; I know you said that would be a hardship. I wouldn't suggest it lightly. But - having suffered through a lot of damage because of some of the schools I was stuck in - I'm afraid the school she's in now sounds like an utter disaster for her.

It isn't clear if you understand what's going on in your daughter's mind and why she's having such trouble. If you can't understand it, I'll try to explain it, since it makes perfect sense to me. And the more you understand a problem, the easier it is to deal with. But it will be a struggle for both of us assuming you don't understand her, because, just like I suspect she can't figure out things that are "obvious" to you, the things that are "obvious" to me will seem crazy to you.


[Edited to remove reference to offensive post, Mummy_of_Peanut]

Sounds very similar to my DS when he was in daycares... it was a HOT HOT mess. We went through 5 days cares in like 9 months. Eventually we found an amazing in-home daycare/preschool situation. Some specifics for you though:

1) HEAD'S UP - My son always did better in transitions if he was given a head's up prior to the transition time. Often, he would get several warnings that it was about time to do XYZ. This is still helpful for him at age 8.

2) CONSISTENCY - Hitting is unacceptable. Regardless of whether she is given a dx of Aspergers or Autism or anything else, she needs to know that hitting is completely unacceptable. You and the teachers need to setup a specific plan of discipline to deal with hitting. Time-outs might not be appropriate for her - they never ever worked with my son. He did much better with being 'grounded' from something specific - no video game time that evening, removal of legos, etc. Some kids this doesn't work until they are old enough to have a good memory of the day, so you'll have to figure that part out for your child.

3) OBSERVANT TEACHERS - Nothing else is going to make as big of a difference in your child's day as having an adult who is actively paying attention to how she's doing. She REALLY needs for there to be an adult who can intervene PRIOR to her getting upset and hitting. An adult who can help her learn to communicate and redirect her, or remove her from the situation. This is where a smaller, in-home childcare setting can really help. My son loooooved to write and do worksheets. When the daycare provider saw him starting to get upset, she would get him to come sit down and do a worksheet or practice his letters. Find out what activity calms your daughter, and share that with the school/childcare provider so they can use that to help redirect her/calm her.

If she is on the spectrum, know that attempting to punish/reason/discuss things with her while she's upset is useless. She's not going to hear anything you are saying. Work on getting her calm, and then later you can attempt to talk with her about her behavior and choices and then decide on a punishment if necessary.

Whats the point of pre-k? Why not keep her home with you during this time? It's enough that kindergarden is practically mandatory nowdays, why disrupt what should be normal growing time for pre k?

My oldest did horribly in kindergarden. His teacher said he shouldn't start first grade. He was way too immature. I kept him home for a year and he was fine to start first grade the next year.

I think we as a society are way too quick to jump at any different behavior and want a label to put on it. Lots of it is within normal limits. Unless you are having trouble with your child at home, why take them to a dr about it?

The OP is working and needs some sort of care for her children. Perhaps the previous preschool, a small family daycare, or a nanny at home would be good options, or a special needs preschool through the school district.

I would argue that the severity of her daughter's behavior warrants a closer look now, don't wait and see if maturity takes care of it. My son was very similar -- a bit strong willed at home, but nothing that caused us any concern, doing well enough at a play-based preschool. It was only when he went somewhere more crowded and structured that we started seeing the extreme behavior. We did delay kindergarten by a year and had success again at the play based preschool, but when he went to K it was like the academic preschool all over again with the extreme tantrums (hitting, kicking, biting, throwing objects, running out of the room, etc.)

To the OP -- yes, definitely get your daughter out of there ASAP, perhaps delaying just long enough to get someone trained in to observe and/or to document what is happening. She's likely to get kicked out eventually anyway.

If at all possible, I recommend that you find a developmental psychologist, developmental pediatrician, or a neuropsychologist who is trained in administering the ADOS (Autistic Development Observational Scale). Your closest children's hospital is a good place to find one, or push your pediatrician for a referral. Our insurance covered this test, although it was out of network, bringing the cost down from $1800 to $750.

Also, write a letter to the head of the special education department at your assigned elementary school, requesting they form an IEP team and do a multi-disciplinary evaluation of your child. There is an example somewhere on www.wrightslaw.com. Time it so that the report from your independent evaluation is available for the school to review before their evaluations are complete.

You might also find this book helpful:
Asperger Syndrome and Young Children: Building Skills for the Real World by Teresa Bolick

Locked while I deal with offensive post.

edit: dealt with, unlocked

I talked to her old daycare and explained the situation and we are trying to get her back in. I'm not going to delay for observation since they are ready to kick her out. Ok they are kicking her out. She opened a fire door today and ran into the parking lot. I am not sure if this is AS or ADHD or what and won't know until she gets evaluated in a couple of weeks. I do know that I fit many of the criteria for AS myself (I score a 42 on the AQ test and a 142 on the aspie quiz (57 nt)) and I see a lot of myself in her so that's sort of why I'm thinking AS over ADHD.

[[[hugs to CWA]]]

Hang in there. I have had my son kicked out of daycare too. And I work full time as well. What helped me the most is when a friend of mine who licenses childcares told me, that more kids get kicked out of preschool than high school. I don't know why but it made me feel better.

A year later, we still have our problems some days, but my son is in a much better situation now.

We are getting things finalized, the school she is moving out of may waive their two week rule since they were going to kick her out anyway. If they do I can have her into her old school on Monday. They said they would not send her home when she has a bad day because doing so is pointless, which I agree. By the time I get there it is so far removed from the incident that she doesn't "Get" it. Also, depending on what her dx is etc she might be acting out MORE to get sent home at this point.

We had her 5 year check up and vaccination today and the doctor agreed that taking her in for evaluation was the right thing to do after observing her behaviors. She noticed her vocal "tics" and her strange motions with her hands. It's not flapping, she twirls her fingers claps and smacks her legs. I don't know if that counts as the same thing and honestly the doc didn't either. I also mentioned that she can't dress herself becuase she literally can't focus long enough to do so. Same with going to the bathroom (must be escorted every time or else forgets hygeine, or forgets to pull up pants and immediately faceplants afterwards). She is like that with everything except things that interest her like her arts and crafts projects or teaching herself to write her numbers and to add and subtract.

I also noticed the other day (how this escaped me before I'm not sure) is that although she prefers her right hand, she is ambidexterous while writing and drawing. She was switching freely between her left and her right depending on which one had the crayon she wanted with really no issues, her writing and drawing was about the same on both sides.