Not Winning Games

Post Reply New Topic

Hi all,

We love playing board games in our family. My older son (not ASD) and I especially love trying new games and playing games and collect them. My younger son (suspected ASD) also really loves being included in game playing, but has several meltdowns every time we play. He cannot tolerate it if he is not the winner or suspects that he may not win, he takes it very, very personally and gets very upset. I don't think it is a competition issue, I think he just takes it very personally. Real, big, sad tears pour down his face. We end up bending the rules for him often. He can roll again, or I tend to not play my best so that he may get an advantage. This causes a lot of resentment with my older son, not because he is not winning but because he wants everyone to play their best for the sake of the game. We end up not playing games as much as we really want because it always involves a lot of drama. However, my older son has dyslexia and some processing issues and playing games are really how he learns a lot of concepts. Plus, he is really good at games. I would really like to have smoother game time and accommodate everyone's needs, but don't know how.

Any tips on how to handle this?

Thanks.

We had a similar problem with our youngest daughter for several years. She has always been very sensitive. We started telling her she couldn't play if she was going to get that upset. She wasn't happy about it and struggled with controlling her emotions, but over time got better.

While we were struggling with this we would often play the game more than once (we were playing card games that didn't take a long time) The idea that even if she didn't win the first game, she could win the next time seemed to help. We started by making sure she won the first round frequently, then slowly moved to making sure she wins at least once to letting everyone play to their best.

This may also be a symptom of a different issue - he may feel that if he doesn't win then somehow he is less lovable, smart or whatever.

Another idea is to have a scheduled game time just for you and your older son, then some time for just you and your younger son and finally some time for everyone to play together.

I hope this helps.

I have had such a plethora of "game playing" problems here that I don't know where to start, so bear with me. I can't write it all down now, but I will tell you a few things, which may or may not help you.

My daughter has a very hard time not winning. In kindergarten we went through a period of time where she would actually become destructive (knocking chairs over, throwing books, etc), and she has NEVER done anything like that for any reason other than losing. In kindergarten her teacher called me once because she couldn't figure out why in the middle of a matching game, she had a sudden explosive outburst. When I asked her about it, she had somehow figured out that even if she won the rest of the matches, she would not have enough to win. Don't ask me how she figured that out in kindergarten because I have no idea.

What stopped these kinds of outbursts was learning about "expected" vs "unexpected" behaviors as per the programs developed by Michelle Garcia Winner. Before grasping that, she did not understand why she couldn't tantrum. From her perspective, as long as she did not hit people or say mean things to anyone, she saw no reason not to tantrum. It made her feel better. When she came to understand the concept that other people have thoughts and other people have thoughts and feelings that are the result of her behaviors, a light went on, and even though she still had a hard time controlling her outbursts, she tried...and eventually learned how not to tantrum.

Another issue we had is that she understood the concept that she couldn't win every time. So as long as she won every other time, or maybe every third time, she was good. She was even a gracious loser. This works OK in small settings with a few people. But it still didn't help in school, until one day she suddenly realized that if there were 20 kids in her class, in order to be "fair," she should really only win 1 in every 20 times. Otherwise someone else was not winning "their fair share." This does not make her completely comfortable with losing, and I think she still struggles with it on an emotional level, but on a cognitive level, I think it helps her to stuff her sad/angry/hurt feelings down a bit. Really, what the realization has done is made her not like playing games as much. She likes to win and I think she feels bad at the thought of not being "fair" and winning "at someone else's expense."

The rule we adopted in our house is that playing games is done for fun. When it stops being fun, the person who is no longer having fun stops playing. Sometimes a gentle reminder that "if you are no longer having fun, you shouldn't play anymore" is enough to get her back on track.

How old is your younger son? Some of this may be developmentally appropriate for a younger kid, especially one on the spectrum. My daughter is 9 as a point of reference, and I would say that only in the last 6 months or so has she seemed to have a bit of a better handle on it. I would also characterize her autism as mild (apologies for those who cringe at that word...I know that her issues are very real and that she works very hard to compensate; I do not mean to minimize her struggles, I merely use the term to denote that she may not struggle as much as others may).

Thanks, InThisTogether and Dmarcotte.

He is 7 years old. My older son is 9. We do have a rule that if he stops having fun and is getting really upset, he should stop. But, he is conflicted between really wanting to play and the fact that he is not winning and will have an even bigger meltdown when we suggest he stop. We do tell him beforehand that he will have to stop if this happens, but he cannot control his emotions at all at this point. Well, he can better than he used to, but does not possess a lot of coping skills. He also gets upset when he doesn't pick the card he wanted, or land on the spot he wanted, etc. I used to be able to convince him to be on my 'team'. Somehow, this made him feel more ok with losing, but he does not want to do this anymore. And, losing to him is not first (even if he is second). I tried to make a rule that anyone who is not last is also a winner (and make sure he isn't last), which sort of helps a little. I know it sounds like I am not being 'firm' enough, but with a lot of things with him, he hears what he wants and does not seem to understand that the rule applies even when he is feeling really upset. It is (to me) more of a lack of connection than 'getting his way'. He does not always process well what others are saying when he wants to hear something else.

I will check out Michelle Garcia Winner's stuff. That may help. Playing more than once may help too. We can easily let him win once, I think that has potential. And, yes, I think it is an "I'm not as worthy if I don't win" type feeling for him.

Thanks!

I have that same issue I am working on.
My spectrum child can be a poor loser
So I make some games less competitive

I have seen broad games on amazon online that are cooperative
where everyone bands together for a common goal

Just look
cooperative board games on amazon.

I just thought of another thing that was helpful in lessening my daughter's negative response to losing.

She was having a problem at school that if she was not first in line to go back into school after recess, she would get very upset. Then one day I asked why would she want to be first in line? It actually makes your time outside shorter. The kids at the end of the line get to stay outside longer. Then we started talking about all the times in which being first is not the best.

I know it is not the same as losing, but it did seem to help her be a little more flexible in her thinking.

Let me provide my thoughts from the autistic angle.

(1) Children on the spectrum views things from a third-person's perspective. They are very selfless. They are excellent team players when they grow up, and tend to care much more about other people.

(2) In tomorrow's world, especially with arrival of robotic technology, creativity is everything. It's what the economy will pay for. My point is, don't kill your children's creativity. Creativity and rules don't mix. The more rules you have, the more you kill the creativity of your children.

Now let me elaborate.

Children on the spectrum are different, but they are equal-rights human beings. I would refrain from all attempts at "behavioral correction." Since I myself went through the same issues as a child, and now I am a parent, I am able to see things from both sides. Treat your children as equals. That's the first step.

A game is a game is a game. A game is for everyone to enjoy and have fun. Trying to make too much out of a game is detrimental. The "not-liking-to-lose" issue is simply a phase. Take it as a step in their growing up. No biggie.

Now let me describe my experience and my daughter's experience.

I played Chinese chess with my father. I still remember in one particular game I wanted to modify the rules. He wouldn't let me. I got mad. His perspective, like most people's, was that rules are rules. My perspective was, how come I couldn't be creative and make up new game rules? Why should I follow other people's rules? Why do other people get to invent games and rules but I was not allowed to invent games and rules? Once you understand the perspective of your children, you will realize, oh my God, you are killing their creativity. Children that obey every single rule are good children in their parents' eyes, but they are also severely lacking in creativity, which will hurt them when they grow up, especially in tomorrow's economy. Autistic children are supposed to be leaders, not followers. Let them be creative. Discuss with them about their creation/invention. Encourage them to seek new perspectives. Being a scientist myself today, I can tell people that pretty much all scientific discoveries are done by people that didn't follow rules.

As for my daughter, she got mad when she lost games when playing with her cousins. She cried hard. My wife asked her why, and my daughter said she wanted to win. This is what my wife did. My wife simply asked my daughter: do you think that your cousins would like to win the game sometimes, too? My daughter nodded her head. Then my wife followed: yes, your cousins would like to win from time to time, too. So wouldn't it be OK for people to take turn to win? See, when your cousins win, they will be happy, too. Problem solved.

Children on the spectrum view things from third-person's perspective. They care about other people. Much more so than neurotypical children. And I think that's the angle we should cut in from.

Well. That flies in the face of my experience, especially when speaking in such general terms. My daughter, for example, is far from selfless. That doesn't make her a bad person, but she does have theory of mind issues that often preclude her from seeing things from someone else's perspective. And since she often only sees her own, her perspective is often quite selfish.

I think we should all be cautious of assuming that our own experience represents that of the entire autistic population, the entire NT population or the entire human population.

I see a huge difference between teaching your child to be able to play a game with peers without melting down at not winning, and squashing your child's creativity. There are times to play by the rules and times not to play by the rules. I think we do our kids (NT or ASD) a disservice to not make sure they understand that.

Thanks for your replies everyone.

Cakedashdash, we actually have some cooperative games. Originally, I thought that this would solve the issue. But, even in cooperative games, there is one person who is landing on the spots or getting the card/ die roll my 7 year old perceives as better and he cannot tolerate this either. Or, someone gets to do a thing that he wanted to do, etc. Maybe there are better more "even" cooperative games out there, though. I will hunt around. We did have some when they were younger by this very "feel good" game company called Family Pasttimes. Maybe I should look into some of those again. Thanks.

Eikonabridge, game play in my family is in no way mandatory. He joins in the play because he is interested in playing. And, I don't think our playing games is playing any part in squashing his creativity. My husband and I both happen to be artists, in fact. We are fairly non conventional over here. For example, every year (originating from my and my older son's tree allergies) we construct our own Christmas Tree out of recycled materials and objects we have lying around the apartment. It is a group effort. Tons of creativity going on here. However, we are also really into playing board games and like the challenge the rules impose on us. In fact, out of all of us, my 7 year old is the one who tends to be a stickler for rules in general. It is not the rules that are the issue, it is not winning or having the advantage. And, as InThisTogether's daughter, he is not concerned with the other players feelings too much. This is not a "put down" of my son. I do not have ickyness or negativity attached to that observation, it's just where he's at right now. He does not, at this time, possess much compassion for how the other players might feel about winning or losing, he only knows how he feels. And, he feels pained and tremendously upset when he feels he is not going to win, which we have compassion for. He has social/ emotional delays and is not at a place where he is able to connect with another person's experience yet. My goal is to help him feel more at ease when he joins our gameplay, which is very much his decision to do. He does, at times, ask if he can play the game his own way by himself sometimes, but he prefers this to be a solitary activity.

InThisTogether, thanks for your suggestions. I will try to see if I can convince him that not coming in first is more fun because he can play longer. That, or some version of that, may work.

One game he tends to win a lot, and with no help, is Clue because he has an amazing memory and it gives him an advantage in the game. He doesn't always choose to play it, but it occurred to me that there are probably other games where memory is the skill most needed out there.

There is a matter of nature vs. nurture as well. But in general terms, there has been study on these issues. See for instance: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18255038

This is not a conjecture. Selflessness of autistic people have been measured, statistically speaking. As with anything in statistics, there are bound to be outliers.

We are still having issues with this. Ar first he was didn't care at all, then at school they started trying to use competition to motivate him, and oy, what it unleashed was not good.

We have taken breaks from games, sometimes, which was not ideal because my son is supposed to also practice turn taking at that time. Luckily some games he made his own coorporative rules, for though that also created their own challenges. In Scrabble, for awhile, he was not attempting to win, but made a new goal of having to use every tile, and would flip out when it was nigh impossible, so we had to make some new rules about being allowed to expand past the board's parameter at the very end. Now he cares more about winning, we have to tank games on the regular, and mainly play tankable games. He gets upset even when there is plenty of game left, and we are trying to build tolerance.

My son used to be OK with the everybody should get a turn to win, thing, at least sometimes, but now...nope. He has horrible theory of mind, and was Ok with it on a rule-fairness-basis not on an empathy ToM basis. While he has empathy, he does not have ToM, and is not "selfless" enough to let someone win on that basis, though if he ever played with someone substantially younger who he was sure he could beat, he might. I don't think he likes the notion of not being able to win, more than he needs the win itself, if that makes sense.

Please explain how this makes article shows how autistic children care much more about other people than non-autistic children.

These children are visual. I do not consider a message as conveyed to them until they have seen the message visually with their eyes. Have you tried to draw a picture (stick figures) for him? Draw a happy face of him winning, and sad faces for the other players. Perhaps make several rectangles, showing the situation in each turn in a separate rectangle. And let him know that turn after turn Joe or Jane is sad again and again. Then ask him what can be done. If necessary glue the sheet of paper on the bedroom's wall. That's what we do sometimes with our son, for important messages. I glued one picture in the bathroom so to remind him that he shouldn't dangle from the towel bar. I glued another one in the bedroom to remind him that germs can cause him to be sick. I also find bedtime picture-aided talking reduces future tantrums. He loves the drawings and does try his best to follow the instructions. He no longer dangles from the towel bar. Picture-aided talking brings you much closer to their inner world. Last week my son (5 years old) finally started to draw pictures himself on the magnetic drawing board. He drew an elevator with people inside. To me, he has fully completed his outer visual feedback loop, and he basically has "graduated" in my opinion. I have pretty much solved all the tantrum problems of my children through picture-aided talking. Try it, if you haven't. My daughter is almost 7 years old, now, and has been fully verbal for quite sometimes, now. But she would still bring the magnetic board to me to ask me to draw pictures. I don't know about other parents, but in my case, I get very close to my children through pictures. I talk to them through their eyes, not through their ears. And they seem to appreciate it very much.

Fitzi
I don't know if this idea will work
What about establishing your rules in the cooperative game
You loose if you get mad about losing or don't like a card
Meaning you only loose with poor sportsmanship

You can also play with a game with the 7 year old first than your other

Right now I have to have a talk with my own how it isn't fair if one person wins all the time
so not to get upset if you don't win


I am an artist as well. I do abstract and kawaii.
I mostly due digital art but have been doing mixed media as well.
I have coordination issues and never thought I could ever be an artist

That might work about adding the rules. Good idea, thanks. Also, playing with him first might work. He tends to misunderstand the rules at first in any game. We often start over because of this, but that will help.

My 9 year old has fine motor delays and visual perception issues, yet is a pretty talented drawer. He is also pretty uncoordinated. I think making art just taps into a different part of the brain than coordination. I was VERY uncoordinated as a kid, too. Very interesting.

I love that you can teach your son that you don't have to be coordinated to be an artist
I really hope game playing works out for you and your family
You sound like you have an amazing family

I come from a long line of artists
I always doodled things still do but when I became an adult
I realized I was an artist as well
I used publish writing but I mostly do art
I hand draw like a 4 to 7 year old but do better with a mouse