?Too many Clostridia bacteria as one cause of autism?

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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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18 Aug 2012, 7:40 pm

The Economist is a British publication somewhat on the politically more conservative side of the spectrum.

I consider this as just one possibility among many, but people do have a right to know.

s

Quote:
The Economist
"The human microbiome," Aug. 18, 2012.
http://www.economist.com/node/21560523

Perhaps the most striking claim, however, for links between the microbiome and human health has to do with the brain. It has been known for a long time that people with autism generally have intestinal problems as well, and that these are often coupled with abnormal microbiomes. In particular, their guts are rich in species of Clostridia. This may be crucial to their condition.

A well functioning microbiome is not one without internal conflicts—there is competition in every ecosystem, even stable, productive ones. Clostridia kill bacteria competing for their niches with chemicals called phenols (carbolic acid, the first antiseptic, is one such). But phenols are poisonous to human cells, too, and thus have to be neutralised. This is done by adding sulphate to them. So having too many Clostridia, producing too many phenols, will deplete the body’s reserves of sulphur. And sulphur is needed for other things—including brain development. If an unusual microbiome leads to the gut needing extra sulphur, the brain may pay the price by developing abnormally.

Whether this actually is a cause of autism is, as yet, unproven. But it is telling that many autistic people have a genetic defect which interferes with their sulphur metabolism. The Clostridia in their guts could thus be pushing them over the edge.



chris5000
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18 Aug 2012, 7:44 pm

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Whether this actually is a cause of autism is, as yet, unproven

lets just add that to the long list of things that "could cause autism"



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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18 Aug 2012, 7:53 pm

I agree. Especially since this is the first I've heard of this, I consider this very preliminary.



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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18 Aug 2012, 8:03 pm

I believe in civil rights for persons on the Asperger's-Autism Spectrum. And as I've tried to say, those of us who are more verbal and vocal do a good thing when we stand in solidarity with our less verbal sisters and brothers.

I think we should expand the definition of 'normal' and that it's good for people to be authentically themselves, including when they're different.

Now with all this said, if I can be a better version of myself (or help give children more open fields), sure, that might be something I'm interested in, too.



cathylynn
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18 Aug 2012, 8:15 pm

today i heard on "sound medicine" on NPR that if a pregnant mom is obese, her fetus may have a higher chance of turning out to have autism.



chris5000
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18 Aug 2012, 8:17 pm

I think oxygen causes autism. have you ever seen an autistic person that did not breath oxygen? there is such a large correlation here.



OddDuckNash99
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18 Aug 2012, 9:08 pm

The Clostridium species plays a role in ASDs? So, THAT'S why we always are being hospitalized for gas gangrene, botulism, tetanus, and C. diff! It all makes sense now! 8O

It must be the DPT shot that causes ASDs, not the MMR one! Tetanus is the link!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I just love how the article never even bothers to explain what sulfur is used for in the body. Really, the only major way sulfur is utilized is in a small number of the 20 amino acids, via disulfide bonds. And, of course, the amino acids are used throughout the body. It's not just in BRAIN protein. I put this in the not-even-bothering-to-listen category of ASD hypotheses.

And while I enjoyed chris5000's sarcasm in his post, if you want to get pedantic, oxygen very well may be a factor in ASDs. Hypoxia during birth has long been linked to higher amounts of ASDs.


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19 Aug 2012, 4:10 am

And here I was, all this time, believing it was an unusually high level of midichlorians that made you autistic! :lol:


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whirlingmind
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19 Aug 2012, 6:03 am

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
The Economist is a British publication somewhat on the politically more conservative side of the spectrum.

I consider this as just one possibility among many, but people do have a right to know.

s
Quote:
The Economist
"The human microbiome," Aug. 18, 2012.
http://www.economist.com/node/21560523

Perhaps the most striking claim, however, for links between the microbiome and human health has to do with the brain. It has been known for a long time that people with autism generally have intestinal problems as well, and that these are often coupled with abnormal microbiomes. In particular, their guts are rich in species of Clostridia. This may be crucial to their condition.

A well functioning microbiome is not one without internal conflicts—there is competition in every ecosystem, even stable, productive ones. Clostridia kill bacteria competing for their niches with chemicals called phenols (carbolic acid, the first antiseptic, is one such). But phenols are poisonous to human cells, too, and thus have to be neutralised. This is done by adding sulphate to them. So having too many Clostridia, producing too many phenols, will deplete the body’s reserves of sulphur. And sulphur is needed for other things—including brain development. If an unusual microbiome leads to the gut needing extra sulphur, the brain may pay the price by developing abnormally.

Whether this actually is a cause of autism is, as yet, unproven. But it is telling that many autistic people have a genetic defect which interferes with their sulphur metabolism. The Clostridia in their guts could thus be pushing them over the edge.


So are they saying that this clostridia is present even in the gut of the foetus? I didn't bother to read the article I must state here, only going by the information in your post. I would have thought that since the foetus is fed through the blood of the mother via the placenta and not using its gut until after birth, there would not be a microbiome in the gut until that time as the newborn baby starts digesting. Or are they saying that the baby is born without ASD and then after using its digestive tract and the clostridia are entering the baby's system and causing the ASD? No doubt there will one day be a way of looking at the foetus's brain development whilst in the womb and then it will be known about the genetic element. If it is genetic, then I can't see how clostridia can be the cause.


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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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19 Aug 2012, 5:17 pm

The part I originally quoted from The Economist seems to be making three claims.

1) People on the Spectrum tend to have digestive issues.

2) The body uses up some of its available sulphur reserves by competing, essentially in turf battles, with bacteria of the Clostridia genus.

3) (Some) people on the Spectrum have a genetic difference which interferes sulphur metabolism anyway.

And then we have this interesting wrinkle:

Quote:
http://www.economist.com/node/21560523 [from last two paragraphs]

" . . . Many bugs are picked up directly from the mother at birth. Others arrive shortly afterwards from the immediate environment. It is possible, therefore, that apparently genetic diseases whose causative genes cannot be located really are heritable, but that the genes which cause them are bacterial.

"This is of more than merely intellectual interest. Known genetic diseases are often hard to treat and always incurable. The best that can be hoped for is a course of drugs for life. But the microbiome is medically accessible and manipulable in a way that the human genome is not. . . "



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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19 Aug 2012, 5:22 pm

chris5000 wrote:
lets just add that to the long list of things that "could cause autism"
And I whole-heartedly agree with this.



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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22 Aug 2012, 3:53 pm

I am also intrigued by the brain damage hypothesis which I came up with myself (and other people probably did as well).

That however a person is brain damaged, he or she often ends up in a similar place. With patchy social skills, afraid of mistakes (because you have been criticized), trying to engage in social back-and-forth with clumsy, left-brain analytic skills instead of smooth and fluid right-brain pattern recognition skills, etc.

====================

And this is me, who has long thought of myself as much smarter than average. And I am, in the areas in which I'm smart in. But other areas, maybe not so much.



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22 Aug 2012, 4:15 pm

[Moved from General Autism Discussion to Parents' Discussion on OP's request]


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zette
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22 Aug 2012, 4:28 pm

I love The Economist, have a subscription myself. Their expertise is primarily political and world news, however. The scientific section in the back tends to be interesting stories they've gathered from other places, I don't think they are as capable at properly vetting them as a publication like Scientific American would be. The thrust of the article sounds like they are highlighting the recent attention on the research about gut bacteria, the potential autism link is just some researcher's speculation that has been given too much space in the article, not the result of an actual study.



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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22 Aug 2012, 4:41 pm

zette wrote:
. . . The thrust of the article sounds like they are highlighting the recent attention on the research about gut bacteria, the potential autism link is just some researcher's speculation that has been given too much space in the article, not the result of an actual study.
Thank you for being a good reader.

And yes, the article is about recent attention given to gut bacteria, that it's an ecosystem, of course it is, etc.

Now, whether there are studies backing up the part on autism, there could be, but they don't reference any of the studies.



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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22 Aug 2012, 4:43 pm

Cornflake wrote:
[Moved from General Autism Discussion to Parents' Discussion on OP's request]

I requested that the article be moved because, even though it is very preliminary, I do think parents have a right to know.

And yes, I would squarely categorize this as one more thing to the long list of things which "could cause autism."