Irritated

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Sometimes, my son's lack of empathy really irritates me because he comes off like he doesn't really care. He will "apologize" for his actions, only to move on to the next thing - particularly if it's a fun activity for HIM. He'll apologize but doesn't acknowledge what he's done that was inappropriate even when I tell him what he's done (you swore, you threw a book at me, etc)

Here is today's story (as trivial as it was):

My wife planned a biking trip with my son. I didn't want to go, which was fine, so instead I started heating up their food for them to take on their trip. When I returned to the kitchen, the oven was turned off and the food was left in the oven. I asked my son about it and he said he shut it off "ten mintues ago". The food was warm. This, in itself, was not a big deal. I tried to explain, "If you're going to shut the oven off, either put it in the thermoses yourself - tell me you're shutting it off - or just remind me if you think I've forgotten about the food. Don't just shut it off and do nothing else about it." Well .. attitude, attitude, attitude - lots of interruption and then he told me to shut up. By this point, I was really irritated and so my wife suggested for me to meet her at Starbucks. This is our new "plan" whenever one of us is feeling like we're about to "blow". So I left. She handled the rest and met me at Starbucks.

On her way back, I told her I'd call him to let him know she was on her way and I didn't want to leave things the way they were. His first comment to me was, "Are you calm now?" Hm? I didn't scream, yell or tantrum. So I said, "Do you understand why I got frustrated with you?" - "So-o-r-y-y-y!" Then he expected me to apologize back to him. Um, pardon? I am the parent in the situation and when I'm addressing a problem, all I ask is that he listen. I have no problem in apologizing if and when a situation presents itself. Since he wasn't listening (and was copping out attitude), I left to avoid further confrontation - which, in my opinion, is better than over-reacting. The rudeness continued because all he wanted to hear was me say "I'm sorry". I told him the conversation wasn't going anywhere and I was going to inform my wife because I didn't feel it was fair for him to go on an outting when he was being disrespectul. I said good-bye and hung up the phone.

When she arrived home, she had him call me to apologize. This is what it sounded like from her end:

"Sorry."
(pause)
"Sorry."
(long silence)
Sounds like he's cooperating.

This is what it sounded like from my end:
"Do you und.. (interrupted)"- "Sorry."
"I am still talking and.. (interupted)" - "Sorry."
"Why are you sorry?"
(silence)
"I've asked you a question."
(silence)..

So I called him on it. I knew he wanted my wife to think he was doing the "right thing" so she could take him "biking". So he responded with, "I'm sorry for everything I did". Well like what? "I forgot." (notice, the missing pause?) Hm, I'm suppose to believe he forgot he told me to shut-up? He forgot he was interrupting? He forgot he was pressing phone buttons to drown me out? Really? No. He just wanted to go biking. He wanted to tell me what I "wanted" without acknowledging the problem. He then started crying because "I'm allowed to forget!!" I told him I was hanging up the phone since the problem was still an issue.

I basically told my wife to manage it herself. I don't usually do this but today, I was feeling depressed anyway, and just didn't want to go there. So she dealt with it and now they've gone biking.

I know some of it is the Autism. I know some of it is a pre-teen thing. I also know some of it is just plain disprespect.. and it irritates me.

One thing I have noticed with both of my kids is that their apologies are only genuine when they mean it. They will apologize at socially appropriate times, but it is clearly a hollow apology.

The trick is in understanding that sometimes they think they did not do anything wrong, even when I would disagree. An example would be that my son tells me his sister hit him. She explains that he would not leave her alone and she kept asking him to, and eventually she got frustrated and hit him. I go through the whole, "In this house, we do not hit, even when we are frustrated. Say you are sorry." She gives a pouty little sorry and the reason behind it is that she thinks he is the one who is wrong because he frustrated her and had he not done it, she wouldn't have hit him, so it is his fault, not hers. The fact that hitting is against the rules is beside the point in her mind.

In a situation like yours, here would be my son's thinking when I first corrected him: "I did not know that I was supposed to tell anyone anything. I think it is good that I turned the oven off so that nothing caught on fire. Now that you told me to tell you, next time I will." He would not see himself as needing to say anything further and if I continued further, he would feel I am badgering him. He wouldn't know to say "I didn't know. Next time I will." Instead he might start arguing or defending himself and it would escalate because being unfairly "punished"--if only verbally redirected--sets both of my kids off, but at the end of it, what he'd see is that he made a mistake which he will not make again and I would not let it go. He would see the escalation as my fault, and therefore I should apologize to him. Therefore, his apology would be begrudging.

I guess the good thing is that you got some time to yourself while they were out.

I guess the silver lining is that he is behaving in an age-appropriate manner. That's always what I tell myself when my kids do something that drives me nuts, but is--technically--appropriate for their age.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. The initial problem wasn't so much a problem and more about knowing what to do next time. My son does not like constructive criticism AT ALL. He will argue my every point, even if his point is non-sensical. I did acknowledge that I appreciated his effort in trying to help but that next time, he needs to let me know.

I think it's rather funny now. Funny that he expected me to apologize to him as well. He does NOT like to acknowledge his role in anything when it's being addressed. Is he able to? Is he refusing to? Is it his pride? Or does he really not connect the dots? Much like your son, he will apologize, willingly, when he is not confronted. When he is, it's never his fault.

There is also the possibility that he really doesn't know what he is apologizing for: turning off the stove? Not taking the food out? Not telling you? Arguing with you? Telling you to shut up?

When you asked "What are you apologizing for?" he probably figured that saying "I don't know" would be the wrong answer, even if it was the honest one. Perhaps he was afraid he would pick the wrong thing and then you would be even more angry. I also know my son does not have very good episodic memory. He is very much like me in that way. I generally remember the gist of arguments, but I would be very hard pressed to put them in chronological order or remember verbatim what anyone said. So remembering specific things that I said or did to make someone angry might be truly hard at times.

What if you used it as a teaching moment and said "I don't like the way things went between us before. I realize you think I owe you an apology, but I am not sure why. Could you explain it to me?" Then explain to him that if you ask for an apology and he really doesn't know why, it is ok for him to tell you that so that you can make sure you both understand the situation the same way.

Well initially, before I left for Starbucks, I told him what the problem was. I told him I didn't appreciate him being rude by arguing, interrupting and telling me to shut-up, when I was talking with him about the oven. I also told him the oven wasn't a big deal and that next time, he should at least tell me if he's shutting it off. He responded saying he didn't tell me to shut-up.

What I wanted him to say was,
"I'm sorry for telling you to shut-up." instead of denying it.
"I'm sorry for being rude." since I mentioned about the arguing, interrupting, etc
"I'm sorry for pressing the phone buttons." when I mentioned it.

Sorry for anything at all .. but he wouldn't acknowledge ONE thing.

Then I think it is because he is stuck at square one: taking the stuff out of the oven.

But you still don't know why HE thinks YOU should apologize. It may be illuminating to hear.

Could it be possible that he told you to shut up in the heat of the moment, and doesn't remember doing it?

Here's how I would have felt in your son's position at his age:

I would have thought I was doing something to help by turning the oven off. Then, by coming in and telling me what I should have done, I would have felt
A. That what I had done right was being ignored.
B. That I was being told off for not doing things that I didn't know I was meant to do.

This line in particular

would have immediately put me on the defensive and made me process everything as "I am being told off when I was trying to help" rather than "She is just trying to explain what she wants".
The fact that there was no "thank you for not letting the food burn" would also have upset me as a child.
Overall it would have seemed to me as though the situation was all about what I did wrong (which in itself would have seemed unfair since noone told me what they wanted of me), with no acknowledgement of what I'd done right.

/\/\/\/\/\My guess is this/\/\/\/\

Lets face it. Many of the lessons we were taught as children we really did not understand until we were older. If I were being honest a lot of those lessons really didn't hit home till I had kids of my own.

I am typically very calm with the kids. I think the above scenario would have gone more like this. "Thanks for shutting off the oven. If you are unsure about something like that and have no way of figuring out why it was on. The safe thing: is always the right thing. Please investigate a little next time. See if it was on for a reason. Or if something was in it. At the very least let someone know you shut it off". I do think he may have misunderstood what he was sorry for.

That said I do encounter the disrespect: short answers: and thoughtless actions of youth. IMHO not abnormal at all. I am a big fan of modeling. Modeling and hoping. Hoping that as their mental maturity increases they will understand the wisdom of these lessons. Really your lesson is not about not turning the oven off, taking the food out,, letting you know what he did,,,, or even being disrespectful. Its about putting in a reasonable amount of thought before he acts or decides not to act. Its about putting in a reasonable amount of thought about how he responds to others. How to make a situation less of a situation rather than more of a situation.

Just my 2 cents

I do understand where you are coming from though. There are times where I would just like to wring the snot out of that kid of mine.

I asked him tonight. He said it was because I "yelled" at him. I used a firm voice, yes, when he was talking over me, interrupting, and telling me to shut up. I didn't yell though. It was his opinion that I did and that's all he focussed on. He does this often.


Possibly. He denies things all the time too.



I see what you're saying and yes, he did take initiative to help out. He just forgot to tell me. He's allowed to make mistakes and is it unreasonable for him to handle constructive criticism appropriately though? Can't help but think he's being too sensitive here.


Yep. It's about saying the RIGHT THING all-the-time and he's left with no accountability over his own behaviour because his focusses more about what everyone else did "wrong".


He can be stubborn at times, actually. I tell him what the behaviour is - there's no guessing involved.

Bingo.

I don't know your son, but for my daughter at this point it is unreasonable to expect her to handle constructive criticism appropriately, even though she should reasonably be able to do so at her age, especially considering I almost never raise my voice. She can't do it. I don't know why she can't, but something about it sets her off every single time. For some reason she finds it threatening almost at a primal level. I don't think it is driven by rational thought or logic.

Does your son ever respond favorably? Maybe that would provide a clue into how to best phrase things so he can hear them.

I have to say, I've been upset by this all day and it's more about my own mental well-being. I woke up feeling really "blah" to begin with so I probably didn't handle it the same way I would normally have had. It's why I opted out of biking and I really didn't feel like doing ANYTHING.. on such a sunny day. So, he got on my nerves. Sometimes I resent him because I feel like I have to be "perfect" on behaviour management.. "perfect" during teachable moments.. "perfect" at addressing concerns.. "perfect" at walking on egg-shells around him. A lot of the time, I AM "perfect" but I'm not always .. or a lot of the time.. if you can understand it. Part of his deal is his Autism and part of it is pre-teen "stuff" .. part of it is just inexcusable.

Tomorrow is a new day. Hopefully I'll wake up in a better mood.

What do you mean?

It is a skill he should learn.
It's also a skill that I didn't have at his age. I couldn't tell the difference between constructive criticism and nasty criticism.
I couldn't tell the difference between joking and nasty criticism. I was constantly told that I was a baby, too sensitive, and that I "couldn't take a joke", but the problem was that I couldn't yet distinguish between various modes of address.
I did learn how to do it (not perfectly), and your son probably will too, but it takes time.

In my experience, these kinds of emotions play into it all a lot. Yes, we have feelings, too, and a right to be less than perfect, but our kids don't have a clue what to do with that, so on the days we aren't at our best, things can get out of control fast. Sometimes everyone has to apologize for not handling things well / figuring out what was needed; there is no single fault, and there is no point in trying to throw discipline into the equation (unless you've got a consistency situation), because everyone is messing up.

I started reading this thread and even though my son is 15 and doing super well (honors student, soon-to-be-eagle-scout, etc) my first thoughts were "do people really expect their ASD kids to be able to do all those things?"

I don't assume anything, ever with my son. I learned long ago it just led to both of us getting frustrated.

But when I'm having a rough time, those are the days I get a little lazy about dotting the i's and crossing the t's that I know need to be dotted and crossed to keep things moving along smoothly with my son. Sometimes I get lucky, and he magically fills in all the gaps. Sometimes I don't, but he actually senses my mood and treads lightly. Sometimes I don't, we end up where you did.

Time and experience make things better for everyone.

Hopefully tomorrow is better.

I mean have you found a way to give him constructive criticism? If I very carefully choose my words and kind of "edge in" to the feedback with my daughter, sometime I can get her to hear what I am saying without her erupting. Like say she leaves the caps off of her (rather expensive) markers (I got her an artists set). If I just say "When you leave the cap off the markers, they dry out and then you won't be able to use them again" she gets upset. But if I say something like "I love the way you used the blue in this particular drawing. That was really creative. Too bad the cap wasn't on that blue marker. I think it is dried up. Let's look to see if we can find any more markers that are not capped and fix the problem." See? I start with a complement about her special interest. Then I make a statement that has nothing to do with her (the cap wasn't on the marker, not you left the cap off the marker). Then I offer the solution. The end result is that she learns to take care of her art supplies. To be responsible. That's the end result I want.

Sorry you are feeling in a funk. We all get there sometimes. I hope it passes soon.