8 year old with Autism....iPad...eating issues... several qu

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First of all, nice to meet everyone. My issue is not with my child, but the child of a close friend. She has an 8 year old Autistic son, non verbal communication. I really want to talk to them about these issues, but do not know how to approach it, or what to do. I will explain the issues:

First, the child and his iPad are attached 24/7 it seems. It is being used as a babysitter and not a reward. He does not use it for education or autistic support apps, but watches YouTube videos and movies constantly. This also carries on to the dinner table. The iPad/iPhone does not leave his hands during the meal, volume very loud too. Parents ignore it and just let him be. This leads into the second issue that I think is pretty important. He basically has no table manners. I do not blame him at all, but there seems to be no attempt to correct these things or teach proper ways to eat. He pretty much grabs at all the foot and shoves it into his mouth. iPad going the entire time, watching it, not even really seeing the food. He ends up with food all over the floor, table, iPad, himself, pretty much all over the place. Also, he grabs at food in the middle of the table and off of other people's plates. It has gotten to the point where others in the family do not want to have them over for occasions because of this. Again, I do NOT blame the child for this at all, but the parents who pretty much ignore it.

Now, I KNOW the child can use a fork. I have seen it. At some meals, his mom puts the fork in his hand to start the meal. He takes a couple of bites using the fork, then progresses to taking the food off the fork with his hands, then right to using all hands to grab and food and shovel it in. There is rarely an attempt by the parents to put the fork back into his hands and work WITH him eating properly. I KNOW he can do it and does understand things, but nobody helps to reinforce the right actions. When he grabs at the food off other plates, they say NO...then he does it again and they ignore it. They kinda laugh at how good of an eater he is, but he really looks overweight to me also, and that is a whole other health issue.

My main issue is with his parents, my family members. I would LOVE them to take the iPad away and use it as a REWARD after a meal, or after doing other things properly. Instead, it is attached to him and is an electronic babysitter with mindless youtube cartoons going all day long. I would LOVE to see them make sure he uses a fork for an entire meal, no iPad at the table. Every time he puts it down, take his hand, put the fork back in, and help him to use it. This must be reinforced. He has been doing this for YEARS now and it seems to be getting worse, and the iPad use seems to be about 12 hours a day when not in school. I have literally never seen them take the time and effort to correct and work with him on these things. Every meal at our house ends with food all over the floor, carpets, furniture, etc...and nothing is done. Personally, I would be embarrassed by the fact that I was not making an effort to help my child improve these things.

Now they have another very young child and I am afraid there will be even less support and attempts to help and work with him as the focus shifts to the new baby.

Do I say anything? I am not trying to be a backseat parent, but am very concerned and I feel very bad for the child basically growing up with an iPad attached to him and not moving forward. I KNOW he can learn. He can use an iPad with no problem, understands to lower the volume when asked, does things when asked, etc... just seems to get ignored most of the time while he makes a mess at the table, and at other people's houses.

Hopefully I have explained it well, I am just sorta typing and thinking as I go. Any questions, please just ask and I will do my best to answer. I am just very concerned. The older he gets, I am afraid it will get that much harder to fix the issues.

What comes to my mind about this is - have you ever seen a melt down? Have you personally dealt with one? Taking that ipad away when he wants it can have serious meltdowns as a result. I am certain that is exhausting for his parents. While it isn't the right answer per say.. I can sure see why they give into this behavior.

As for meal times... executive function issues are huge in autism... no matter where on the scale one may find themselves. Using a fork "correctly" takes extreme efforts. It can be exhausting. When everything in your life takes total concentration to achieve.. would you be willing to do something so readily? I think not. It is very exhausting. So while he may be able to use a fork.. he reverts back to the "food shoveling" because it is way easier. If he is comfortable in his environment he will probably always revert back. I myself eat way "less than appropriate" when in company of my own family. I also use the aid of a butter knife to help me put food on my fork properly when in public. I can tell you I sure didn't know how to do that when I was eight. I also eat the majority of my foods in a bowl to help with not pushing my food off the edge of my plate. I am 38 - and not 8... It is not so simple as "to teach correct manners". Executive functioning issues go beyond teaching.

He has enough struggles in his life. There is time enough for him to catch up. He is 8 years old. If he is severely autistic he may be only 3 or 4 in his behaviors. We are not our real ages. He will get there if and when he is able.

There are days that I can veg on 12 hours of cartoons and what is "not appropriate" too... when your have to put forth extreme efforts to survive.. the mundane is needed in life. Even when you may want to "go outside to play".. it just isn't that simple. I can want to all I want... if my efforts "to be normal" has left me with no energy... then I will watch 12 hours of cartoons and no one should expect different of me. I always put forth what I am able to do. When the tank is empty - it is simply empty. Some people have small tanks.

I know you feel you have the best for him in mind.. but really, you should look into executive functioning, sensory issues, meltdowns... you will find your answers there. It isn't all just bad parenting. Coping with the lemons life has given you is needed too...

Autism is complex. teaching the proper ways is not always the answer.

You don't see what they are doing at home. When you are at a meal with people outside the immediate home and family is not the time to be engaging in training. They probably let more go when they are with extended family in order to keep the meal more peaceful. Ditto with the iPad -- it keeps the child calm so that the parents have a chance to visit with the family.

I also want to direct your attention to this post, by one of our autistic members - it is one of my favorites:

10 ways to help your autistic child: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt132389.html

I agree with Bombaloo that clarification of your relationship would assist us in helping you.

The first thing I would like to say is to be careful of offering advice. You do not know what you don't know. You are making judgements based on seeing the child either in your home or when in his own home with people over. Autistic children act differently when they are under stress, and parents often are more lenient about certain things when their autistic child is stressed. Being over other people's home, even if they have been there before is stressful for autistic children. Having other people violating your sanctuary of home and making noises and violating ones solitude and privacy can be equally stressful. So the parents may have promised to let him use his iPad to self-calm. Not everything an autistic child does has to be reinforcing or educational. Self-calming (and fun) are good things too. They may also not feel like spending the time they have cordoned off for socializing on correcting table manners. They may need the break.

The best way to find out what is really going on is to ask questions, in a non-accusatory manner, with an open mind. They are the parents, and might have a plan, and just don't want to talk about it with others, or may feel like they are being called bad parents. Parents with autistic kids get a ton of unsolicited advice, often from people who may be well meaning but have little knowledge about autism and also who think they have the whole picture when they do not. Often we get defensive when "corrected" by others. If you choose to say something, you will want to make sure you are close enough (not just based on blood--but on emotional closeness) to the parents, and you should ask questions about how the family is doing and wait for an opening and only make suggestions if you think the input is welcome.

Since he is non-verbal, what else can he do while eating? Taking his iPad away won't suddenly make him take part in table talk. I don't know any non-verbal people, but just sitting there listening to other people talk is probably very boring for someone like that.

Thank you for the responses. TO clarify my relationship with the boy, he is the son of a cousin of mine, and we are pretty close. I have been around several times when not in a family dinner situation, and it is the same when in their own environment without family. I do understand how difficult in can be, and maybe the iPad is a way to get a break if they are frustrated and tired from trying. Every time I am over there just on a day to day basis the iPad is attached to him. I did some reading about Autism and iPads, and they can be great tools. There are some great Apps that can be very helpful with communication and other tools. I also have read that one of the worst things to do is put a young autistic child in front of a TV/iPad/Computer just watching random cartoons on Youtube for hours at a time without any interpersonal engagement. This can stunt development I have read.

I really do know that I am not there 100% of the time so realistically I do not know what goes on all the time. I just know what I see, and what I see really does worry me. I want the best for everyone, especially the child, who I know has the capability to do many things. I see him running around our house when over for dinner with food all over him, taking things out of rooms, and being ignored. I really do NOT blame the child at all for this, I understand it can be extremely hard, but is it counterproductive to not attempt to correct things and instruct proper ways. I do not want to see them yell at him or anything, just gently instruct him or help him out showing what is right and wrong.

To trollcatman....I do not expect him to take part in any table talk of course during dinner if the iPad was not there. I just wonder if he could focus more on eating if not for the external distractions. Others here have said it takes a lot of focus and concentration to do these tasks, so wouldn't that just make it harder if the focus in intently on the iPad and Spongebob and eating is in the background? His eyes are focused intently on the ipad and do not move to the food. I also do not know what would happen if it was taken away. Maybe he would throw a fit and they do not want this to happen in public. I just worry (maybe incorrectly) that the longer things go on, the harder they will be to improve upon.

I do not know if some Autistic children who may be on the higher end of scale can use reward to make learning easier. I have not said anything, but would using the iPad as a reward after eating dinner help, or are all cases vastly different?

All I know is what I see. I have kids myself, and make sure I am paying full attention to them when I am out at someones house. If they are downstairs playing, I make sure things are ok. In this case, there is zero attention spent making sure things are ok, I really see almost zero interaction and it worries me.

I apologize to anyone I may offend with these posts, it is 10000% not my intention. I really do want to help out if I can, and do not want to say anything if it would be taken as being way off base.

I appreciate your response. But I would like to point out what you say about the ipad being a distraction. Some autistic individuals distrust their sense of perception to the point they choose to do things without direct sight. Meaning, they use their peripheral vision. I do this - especially when stressed. So, if he seems totally focused on his ipad, in reality he is quite aware of what his hands are doing.

A Good Article Here

As I said earlier - autism is complex and hard to understand. Behaviors are rarely what they appear to be. He can learn - I won't dispute that... what I will say is that it may be years behind others his age and probably never to a level expected of him.

Also some aspies/auties are over sensitive to stimuli, and some under. If he runs around covered in food, I can bet he is under-stimulated and can't even feel the food on him. My son's mouth is forever covered in food. If we point it out, he has to look in a mirror because he simply does not believe. He also still drools, and not just when sleeping. He simply can not feel it to stop it. He is 14. So if this boy doesn't feel it - how is he to know to clean it? He probably sees it but before making it to a sink to wash he is distracted and off running/doing something else. Attention spans and executive functioning is usually poor. I have alarms for everything from brushing my teeth, drinking water, taking a shower.. and too many more to list. I simply do not remember without a reminder and most times I snooze the reminder because between turning off the alarm and doing the said activity I will forget again.

Yes it is important to engage the child. But also this child picks up more than you realize even while watching youtube. He only appears to not be engaged. Or other times he may be totally engrossed. I not only was not engaged as a child, but left totally alone from the age of seven. I learned and picked up what I know now through mimicking. For the type of life I have had, I turned out ok for the most part.

When this child has zero attention... does he misbehave? Does he cause malice? My guess is that when he is left to himself he is totally ok and better behaved when no one is engaging with him. Just a guess... but at age 8... I sure preferred it that way.

We do not behave as people think we should. We do not think like people think we should... but you know what? Our brains are wired different... so we behave as best we can. Not wrongly. Not incorrectly. Differently. Do we need help now and again? Yes we do. But that is ok too. It is never by willfulness.. meanness... disrespect... or any of those wrongly labeled things by well meaning people.

Sometimes leaving well enough alone is the best practice.

It feels like to me that it is offending you that the parents of the child are allowing him to make huge messes at your house, and then, I get the impression that they stick you with the mess, while never having tried to stop the mess. In which case, I don't see anything socially wrong with having a discussion with them, that if they do allow the child to cover your floors and walls and table with food, for whatever reason, be it that the child can't help it physically, or it would stress him too much, or even if it really is that they are just apathetic to his behavior, that whatever the reason that they help you clean up his mess. Also, it feels like the issue of the ipad at the dinner table is less about the fact that the child is using it than it is about the fact that staring at it is a) contributing to the mess, and b) has the volume turned way up, which of course disrupts other conversation attempts.

And then the issue with the child grabbing other people's food. Many parents here have expressed all they are doing to stop their children from invading other people's space. Maybe this is one area they haven't tackled yet on the invading other people's space issues, but of course they will have to at some point (I do consider that a pretty bad space invasion even for a child functioning at a three year old level), but right now maybe they are working on remaining clothed in public or not grabbing others inappropriately or any number of things that can outweigh invading people's dinner plates, even though dinner plate grabbing is pretty invasive.

I guess I'd ask - have you asked the parents what is going on and why? Nobody on this forum can answer your question - we don't have enough information.

I would be careful to approach it differently than the way you've done here. Ask what kind of support they are getting, what kinds of interventions they are using, and what approach they are following. Ask as though you are interested and want to hear what they have learned about their child.

You may find out that they have a plan in place, and while it's a little messy, it is working - you may be missing the day-to-day improvements.

You may find out that they have no support at all and are making it up as they go.

You may find out that they are close to financial ruin because interventions for their child are not covered by insurance and their local school hasn't stepped up.

You may find out that they are getting support and have a plan in place and it's failing miserably and they don't know what to do.

You may find out that they've decided to ease up on their kid because he was nearly intervention-ed to death and it was making him and everybody else miserable and getting everyone nowhere.

You may find that they are trying their best to make a comfortable environment at home because their school system is essentially doing nothing but warehousing their child in a stressful situation with other kids who are abusive.

These are only a few possibilities that I can think of off the top of my head, but I imagine there are numerous others - and these are all things I've read here from posters with autistic children. You can't know unless you ask. I suggest you find a way to take your cousin out to dinner and start by saying "Wow, it seems like you guys are having a really rough time with my little first cousin - I thought you might want a relaxed evening and a chance to talk."

I know you want to help - but, honestly, if I found out a family member of mine were writing about my parenting skills, or even felt they should be correcting my parenting skills in the way you did, I'd be hurt beyond belief. I can't explain how exhausting it is to have a child on the spectrum - and my kid just barely qualified for a diagnosis. I know my family judges me - I also know they are wrong, but they are very quick to attribute problems to our parenting and successes to my child's obvious and delightful gifts (truthfully, though that hurts - I guess I prefer it to people seeing my son as hopelessly broken.)

I've also been on your side of things - I have a friend with a disabled adult daughter, and I've tried to help them figure out stuff for her to do - but I realized the last time that I was spending too much time "fixing" and not enough time listening. I hope I haven't damaged that relationship.

So, I'd caution you: tread lightly. Don't make assumptions without very good information. Even then, tread lightly.

I am not offended. It is just that if you approach this from the "I know better than they do," perspective, when you do not live what they live, it can easily come off as critical and preachy, even if you do mean well. I am with Momsparky in that I would be super offended if my relatives approached me in that way.

I can understand if you do not like the mess, and do not want to clean it. In that case, maybe do not invite them to functions unless it is in a park or something. Another thing you can do, if they are willing, and if they trust you to take care of their child, is to offer to babysit. They might welcome it. If so, I would NOT take the iPad away (unless the parents instruct you to) but you could probably have a go at teaching table manners. Just make sure that you follow any rules given to you by the parents, and do not experiment unless they Ok it. Stability is very important; For the child's well-being.

Edited to add: You seem to assume the iPad is a break for the parents. It is likely a break for the child. Autistic children do not self-calm well. This is not like when parents of NT kids plop the kid down in front of the TV. The kid likely uses the device to keep calm. If the parents sense that you look at everything as lazy parenting they will not be receptive. There is no way that does not come off as condescending.

I gotta say I cant completely agree with the treadstarter. So ok, taking food from other peoples plate is not ok with me, and an 8 year old child should be able to use a fork at restaurants. But it really depends on how good he is with physical movements, so many autists have physical disabilities.

But the thing is, it is really a torture to eat with other people together. So you say, you are disturbed by his manners, so I think you want to say that because of this you cant enjoy your meal as you could, and so you are disturbed because you want to enjoy your meal and cant to so, when you get disturbed every minute.

The thing is: With me its the same. I also want to enjoy the meal. I dont want to eat under stress and terror. But NT people are used to eating while doing party. So it is seems to be polite to talk during eating, which is like someone screaming into my ear all the time, you have noise of the dishes, and you get disturbed every minute because of someone thinking to be polite and asking you this and that " And would you like this and would you like that, and would you like more or less of that, and arent there 58 other questions I could ask you and look at you until you answer me, because of me suddenly thinking that you got too dumb to talk on your own, so I have to ask you everything that comes on my mind, so I can make eating a hell for you?" It is as if you were forced to eat while standing on the main traffic of new york and you never can relax, you always have to care for something else then eating, so you cant eat relaxed leading to the situation, that you dont want to eat anyway, because humans dont want to eat while under stress and horror. Do you think, that if an airplane gets into a normal storm, and the airplane jumps up and down and people are stressed, that there will someone be asking: "Stewardess...so do you think I should better eat the beef or do you prefer the chicken?" You dont have appetite in this situations, and you dont want to eat in that situation.

So I avoid eating with others, and at home I prefer reading while eating, because reading allows me to shut down all of this noise and so on. So reading gives me the oppurtunity to enjoy eating. So I absolutely respect that others want to enjoy eating too, thats why I said I absolutely understand that you dont like someone grabbing food from your plate, or having loud music while eating and so on. Because in this situation someone is taking influence of your privacy. But as you want others to respect your privacy, this is as important for autists as well.

So from my oppinion, I think its ok to try to teach him to respect others privacy. But the thing is: If you want to teach someone that lessons, you cant do that simple with words, but you have to act in this way as well. This means as you wish that this childs tolerate your private space around you, not disturbing you with hands grabbing at your plate and noise disturbing you, you have to respect his private space as well. This means for me tolerating things he does to comfort him, as long as they are not interfering with other peoples private space. So eating with his hands from his own dishes does not interfere with others privacy, as long as he washes hes hands afterwards. Being occupied with the I-pad does not interfere with others privacy, as long as the sound volume is acceptable. Not wanting to speak with others is not interfering with others people privacy, because he is no part of others people privacy and he is no hired clown you have payed to entertain you.

So from my opinion its ok, to mention things that are really physical disturbing you and try to find compromises, and finding a solution that fits ALL (including the boy) around the diner table. But if you want someone to respect your deeds, you have to respect his deeds as well. If you dont respect his deeds to link himself out of his surrounding in any way, why should he respect yours?

knowing what is going on when you aren't around it is hard to say. My daughter is HFA/Aspergers. Very very smart. But, if we let her (she is 5) she would be on the ipad 24/7 and does eat with her hands, messy eater, pretty rude etc... that said when no one is around we work on these things so that other people don't have to see it and so that no one else has to put up with a melt down or hourse of whining and anxious behavior. When we have family over, to be honest I just let her have the ipad and let her do what she wants.

Why?

Well first of all the change up in routine with having extra people (Who she is really not all that interested in beyond THEIR ipads and whatever gifts they brought) are upsetting to her routine and cause anxiety. So she is already tweaked to begin with with just having grandma or grandpa around. Second of all the times I have tried to keep up with limiting the ipad (we are VERY good at this now, she gets it for 2 hours a week unless she uses some reward currency to get a little extra or a family member visits in which case we basically let her have it) when family is around it has turned into an utter disaster (include in this things like using a fork, taking a bath, anything). The SECOND she gets upset grandma, grandpa, or auntie starts saying "oh shes getting so upset. don't punish her (I'm not, I'm just taking hte ipad so we can talk or go out to dinner or something) just give it back" OK... at this point I can either give it back and she might stop freaking out although it is probably too late, or I can keep it. Problem is that grandma just validated her behavior which makes it all the worse to try to keep it away (also all the worse to give it back, thanks gma). That meltdown could go on for hours even if I drag her to the guest room and leave her be while she destroys it (the room, not the ipad).

So, I gave up. When family visits, which is exceedingly rare and we told each and every single one of them WHY they can no longer visit as frequently as they used to, we just let her get away with murder. Most of them don't believe that she has autism anyway because she is so smart and they just think we are lousy parents with a spirited child. And part of that IS because we just take it easy when they are around. The only one who has really seen it AND get it are the two grandpas. My dad, who usually thinks things like autism is baloney, is completely on board (he sees the worst since we will usually visit him, which is 100 x worse, all the rest come to our house which is way better). DHs dad has some doubts, but has seen enough meltdowns to accept that something is amiss. Grandma, auntie nope. Not buying it. My brother, not sure.

Thanks again to everyone for the replies. I have actually learned quite a bit more just from the number of replies here. I will try to address some of the issues, sorry if I leave any out. First, I do not want to change any of his routines without his parents. No way. I will not touch the iPad or anything, but let his parents do it all. I guess my issue is that this has been going on, and getting worse, for years. I have seen him eat with a fork just fine at times, and also do plenty of things that take dexterity. I honestly do not know how difficult it is to get these things to stay part of the routine. As someone said earlier, if something is more comfortable to do, they will go back to that method since it is less stressful and calming. I have some psychology background (probably a bad thing here) and do know that partial reinforcement is the worst way to help correct an action. For example, if he takes food off of someones plate, he is told no by his parents, and they talk to him about what is right. 5 minutes later it will happen again, then they just laugh and say he has a healthy appetite, but nothing is done to help correct it. Anyone will keep doing things they want and like if it is only sometimes they are told it is not ok. Would it help here if they attempt to correct it each time? I know the brain is wired quite differently, that is why I am asking since you all have much more experience than I do in this.

To answer momsparky, I have talked to them about plans of action in the past and asked what they are doing. He is in a good school system with a solid Autism program which is great. I do not know all the details of the program he is in, but they have told me it is very good. I have asked them if there are any autism support groups in the area or even online where they can discuss things and ask questions, they told me none that they know of. I don't know how hard they have looked, but I found this board in about 30 seconds and several others in our area. I have not sent them any information, but maybe when I see him I can casually bring it up, non accusatory of course.

Valkyrie had asked if he misbehaves when left alone and cause malice. Nothing too major really. He definitely has gotten calmer with regards to this, but I know he is pretty heavily medicated too.

I know he is a smart kid. He cannot speak yet, but knows plenty of signs and can communicate when he wants things. He is asked by his parents to get things, put things away, do this and that, and he does them fine. I know he understands a lot more than people give him credit for, too. The main issue is with the eating though, and the reaction by his parents when things go awry. Instead of saying no, please do not do that, when things are grabbed, they laugh and say he just loves to eat. If any child gets a reaction of people smiling and laughing when they do something, why would they want to change? I would LOVE to see a positive reaction and affirmations when he eats with a fork and does things well. If he got the same smiles and positive responses from eating with a fork, would that action stick? With the brain being wired differently I just am asking how this would help.

Thanks again for the information everyone is giving, it is really enlightening.