Independence on tasks

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My son is 13, and he is generally doing really well. He had an aggressive outburst last week, but I know where the problem was and what we need to work on with it. He is working close to grade level in most of his school work. Everything takes him so long that it is really hard to keep him even with where he should be.

What I need help with is his level of dependence. Sometimes it is worse than others. I don't know if we are seeing more of it right at this moment, because he is maybe still out of balance from what happened last week, or it's hormones (he's grown almost four inches since Christmas!), or just a natural cycle with him, because it is a constant, the only thing that changes is how obvious it is. This one recent outburst aside, he is not destructive or violent, left alone he is perfectly happy to entertain himself safely. He does get A LOT of downtime. He's homeschooled, and I'm generally asking him to work considerably less time than he would if he were in public school. He needs to spend more time working, because he is at least slightly behind in every subject. The problem is that I have two other kids to school and a house to run (I'm honestly a terrible housekeeper, but it does still take time), a husband to interact with on the occasions that he isn't working (we usually only see him about 1.5 hours a day), and my own need for downtime so I don't go into a meltdown. I cannot spend considerably more time with direct interaction with this child than I already do. Less time would be great, but just accomplishing more with the time we've got would be awesome.

Issue: To get him to do something that is outside his interest centered comfort zone requires constant interaction with someone. Even if it is something he likes to do. He wants someone to tell him what to do all the time. As an example, his homework today--from his favorite subject. He was assigned problems 1-4. He got very stuck on number 3. Number three was to begin a list that he was supposed to put one thing on the list from his reading, and then save the list for adding more items to with later assignments. He got very stuck on trying to make the entire list right then. I reminded him that the question was only asking him to begin the list. That he was finished with problem three. So he said something like, "Oh yeah!" and put his list away. Then he sits there staring at his assignment page for a few minutes, and finally says, "What should I do now?"

I asked him, "What is your assignment?" And he answered, "Problems 1-4." Then waits. So I asked him what he thought he needed to be doing, and he answered with almost no hesitation, "problem 4". Then continued sitting there waiting on me, until I told him to get to work on Problem 4. He seems perfectly content to waste hours staring at that assignment unless someone actually gives the command.

We go through these kinds of conversations constantly. He knows how to cook pasta. He has done it many times, and likes cooking. Almost every time, he will stop after each step and ask me what he needs to do next. I ask him what he thinks he needs to do. He says the answers without hesitation. He KNOWS, but even after telling me what he needs to do, he rarely ever moves on to actually DO that step without me telling him to.

He used to just always wait, or ask and I would tell him. I started the thing with asking him what he thought the next step was to try to get him thinking, and so I would know where he was hanging up in the process. I think we are still in the same hang up though. And I do not know how to move forward.

Even when he was very small, he was always a pleaser. He progressed really fast in Speech and OT when he was a preschooler, because they never had to fight with him. He was always willing to do what he was told. Now, he does engage in some avoiding behaviors, such as he likes to go sit in the bathroom for long periods of time looking at magazines or something to avoid a task he really doesn't want to do like chores or math homework, but he's still generally a pleaser.

I think sometimes he does that helpless tell me every step routine to get out of work--because it is quite frankly exhausting (to others). And it does get him out of stuff at times. If I need something done quickly with little supervision on my part, I know there is no point in telling him to do it. The middle child gets stuck with it, and the oldest gets something under my eye where I can keep him moving. He's done it enough with my dad and step-mom that they will refuse to take him to their house when they have projects (farm, woodworking, food preservation) going, because having to constantly redirect him stresses my dad. (My dad has a terminal autoimmune disorder. He has continually progressing physical limitations and the slightest stress can put him in bed for a week which hastens the physical decline, so this is a real medical issue, not just them being jerks.) So, this does get him out of things he'd rather not be doing at times.

At other times, it is obviously stressful to him that he doesn't know what direction to go in, and I think being told gives him some comfort that it takes the decision out of his hands. He can't be wrong for working on problem four if I specifically told him to work on problem four--that sort of thing. Asking him for clarification on why he does this is no good. He says he doesn't know, and I believe him. He has extremely low insight into himself and how he compares with others.

I guess this is
Issue #2 He believes he is completely NT, and has no differences compared to other kids at all. In spite of the fact that he has gone to OT for the last ten years, and speech and other therapies for several years, and he knows other kids don't need therapy. Part of me is extremely happy that he has such good feelings about himself. At his age I was so depressed by my differences and social awkwardness that I spent a lot of my time fantasizing about suicide methods. So that part of me is very glad that he sees no differences. Another part of me wonders if he did recognize the challenges and admit to them if it wouldn't be much easier to figure out strategies for dealing with issues like this one. He does know he is diagnosed with autism. I've gotten him to read that cute book with the spiky haired stick figure, and watch the videos that had a clip featuring that comic character. He just doesn't see that the diagnosis makes him any different from anyone else, and he didn't see that he had anything in common with the characters in the video.

that is a tough one, it sounds a lot like me. For some reason I have a hard time finding what to do if no one tells me what to do. My mom helped a lot with it she she would turn things into a game, not really a game but she would word it that way. I took forever to get anything done unless I was prompted.

Getting ready for school in the morning she would say "I bet I can get ready to go before you can" and it would work I would get ready to go without a problem. On homework she would usually get me started and make me write down a step by step of what I was supposed to do like do problems 1, do problem 2, begin making a list for problem 3, etc.. and then she would say "I am going to go do X and I bet I can get it done before you can do your list" guess that gave her away time from me and then I had a list of what I needed to do so I never had to ask what to do next. hope that helps some.

To this day I have a small note book and pen in my pocket that I keep lists of what I need to do, and a lot of random ideals in

You asked him a question. He answered that. He did not know that you wanted something else than the precise answer to your question. He did not know the subtext, that you by asking him what he should do actually told him to go do it. It's quite simple really. Next time, explain the subtext right away, even if it's obvious to you.

Also "aggressive outbursts" that have a source are often frustration and not aggression.

My son is younger (7) but he also likes to work slowly. I don't think it is to get out of doing the work. He knows I am going to make him do it. He knows how to do the work, but executive functions get in the way, and he just enjoys a leisurely pace.

I do not know if your son is too old for this (especially if he thinks he is NT) but maybe put a sheet up in his homework area (or put it on a whiteboard ) with specific instructions like Do question 1, when finished check this ( ) and move on to question 2. When finished, check here ( ) etc. Then when he gets stuck, you can refer him to the sheet instead of verbally nagging so much.

Time management can really be hard for people who can entertain themselves in their heads. Sometimes they need a break. If your child needs this, you could even put a daydreaming break between questions of say 5 minutes (with a timer if he needs it)

Also my son (again younger) gets lonely in his room doing homework, so some of it is he likes me in there prompting him, so he has someone to interact with. I am not fighting that fight right now. I just try to keep his dawdling time to a minimum so we can get done at a reasonable time. I also reward him daily for finishing his homework by a certain time. I give him plenty of time so he is not rushed, but not too much so it drags on too much. I also give him a weekly treat for making all the daily time goals.

I do not know how hard it would be to adapt this for a teen, but you could try, if you think any of this might work.

WOW you have touched on so many issues we have with my 7yo. He is also homeschooled, and will do much of the same. Have to sit on the toliet for a long time to aviod tasks, asks me over and over what he needs to do even though he KNOWS! All I do is ask him right back, and he wil tell me what he needs to do. THEN WHY ASK??? I think its part of task avoidance, and his need to constantly have company.

He does that asking when its not work related too. He will ask me things he already knows the answer for over and over. If I tell him to think about it and he knows the answer, he gets very upset. I think its a kind of anxiety, or OCD in nature.

As far as getting more work done in less time, I have no ideas. My son consumes all my time when it comes to him completing his work. Even simple copying...he needs constant reminders, etc.

My son also has great self esteem and has NO IDEA he is different from anyone. He is in SPeech, OT and social groups, and just assumes EVERYONE is. When I explain not eveyrone needs those things, he just says OK! He has no idea, I havent really shared the name of the diagnosis, but I explain to him that he needs the therapies and why, etc...

no real advice, just wanted to say that we are in similar boats! I was kind of hoping he woud outgrow some of this stuff as he got older!

Bribery. Rinse, repeat.

DS is the same way - esp. with cooking. Some of the hesitation is about him worrying he will "do it wrong" and then have to do it over - the ultimate frustration for him. Some of the hesitation is to see if he can annoy me into doing it for him (probably a small percentage, though.) Some of it is the "needs the exact literal wording in order to proceed."

With the literalness, we are helped because I frequently can't find the right words or substitute the wrong ones. During these times I say "did you know what I meant to say?" DS will usually answer affirmatively. I will say "If you don't understand, you can ask me. If you do understand, I expect you to act like I said it the right way." Rinse, repeat. Slowly he is getting there.

We do also discuss that there are many right ways to do something, and if he thinks about what he's doing, he can figure it out.

The annoy me part is the part I try to combat with bribery: "if you can finish X task by X time (this sounds simple, but took a lot of tweaking - I had to figure out how to present the task and then what amount of time was reasonable) then you can have X (game time, tv show, candy, choice of dinner, etc.)" I do have to make the expectations of what X task means upfront: for instance, if it is a writing assignment, I know I have to specify the number of sentences, and sometimes how the sentence is structured (e.g. a complex sentence with a subject, object, verb and at least one adjective or adverb.) If it is math, I will need to specify that he show his work (he knows what that means, but sometimes that requires explanation.)

Have you tried leaving him alone for a long time to let him figure it out for himself?

I may have already suggested this in a different post and/or you may already do this but what works for my son at school is to follow each non-preferred activity with a preferred activity or sensory break. The checklist idea mentioned by another poster also works well for DS in certain situations. Especially when he can see that the preferred activity is getting closer.
ETA: Does it really matter if he is covering the material a little bit more slowly than the schedule says he should? Part of having autism is being developmentally delayed so it seems to me that him being a little behind is "normal" in a way and that he will eventually catch up when his maturity level catches up.

Ummm, hmmm, how I do explain this without grossing you out or offending you. For me, when I sit on the toilet it is very relaxing. I won't go into it further as I do not want to gross you out further. Sometimes, I can sit on the toilet for a half hour and read a good book. It is like being the king on the throne. You're right it is a form of task avoidance. I believe it is a guy thing.

Momsparky hit the nail on the head as well. For me, I'm afraid I may get it wrong as well and have to start over. I hate that with a passion and I fear criticism if I do have to start over.

Herein is another thing I have issues with. How do I know when I am supposed to proceed to the next step or not. What if before one does step 3 there is something that has to be initially done before that is time sensitive and it may not be listed in the instructions? There may be a hidden instruction that I do see but is implied.

He will sit for hours or he will get distracted by something far more interesting like chatting with anyone who even might be listening a little bit about his favored topic.

By a bit behind, I mean that he is still testing on grade level (when he was younger he tested above grade level) with the state testing in math and reading that is required by my state for homeschoolers. As far as actual work completed, we're at the end of the 3rd nine weeks school period and he's completed between 5-8 weeks worth of assignments. Not 5-8 weeks of the 3rd nine week's assignments. 5-8 weeks of the entire year's assignments. Being that he is in 7th grade, I am getting very worried that the requirements are going to ramp up so fast that even working through the summer isn't going to keep him on an even footing.

That checklist idea is a really good one! I have been writing down the assignment in his notebooks or having him read the assignment from his workbook, but having it spelled out Finish #1, put checkmark here ( ), Finish #2, put checkmark here ( ), etc. might really help him. He does like lists and being able to check it off. Maybe part of the problem is him having trouble breaking it down to it's components. And I could just say, check your list. I really do hate nagging him so much.

We've had the recommendation to get him a good speech to text program, but those are extremely expensive, so we are having to work with the system to get it and to teach him how to use it. I hope that will cut down on his dread of doing his homework and speed him up some what. He has pretty bad fine motor and especially handwriting issues, so getting him to write his own list is hard. He could speak a list, but then not be able to remember it to use it in his mind, or remember it long enough to go through the process of writing it down, so the best I think I could hope for right now is getting him to dictate a list to me. That might be a really good activity to go through to get him in the practice of breaking tasks down in a non-nagging context.

He is hard to bribe, because just about everything he can take it or leave it. Sometimes I get a successful bribe in by giving him a time that I will listen wholeheartedly to him talk about his topic of interest, or give him a guaranteed amount of time that I won't bother him, so he can concentrate on his interest (He's a Marvel comics guy), but TV, computer, videogames, even money are at best inconsistently successful as bribes. The only problem with giving him the time rewards like that is getting him back after the time is up. He doesn't fight with getting back to his work area, but it takes a very long time to get his focus back on his work and off of superheroes.

Anomiel:
His outburst the other day did have frustration as the final trigger. The build up to it was overstimulation and schedule disruption. His next younger brother has made being annoying into an art, but when he gets the overstimulation and schedule disruption he can be really nasty. When they both get unbalanced like they were last week, it can turn ugly quickly with the middle one antagonizing the oldest and then the oldest snapping and going into mindless seek and destroy (everything in his path) mode. He used to have a very low threshold for the frustration or overstimulation/schedule changes that were required to set him off like that, but he's learned to cope much, much better. That really was the first time in over a year that he had lost control of himself.

Yeah, checklist idear sounds like best thing to try. It's important for him to start learning independently managing his own tasks. This kind of thing makes a big difference to adulthood functioning.

This is a big issue for DS. For instance, in cleaning up his room, I had to figure out a "way." For instance - my "way" is that I start in one corner, clean it, and then slowly move around the rest of the room until it is clean. Tried that - it didn't work for DS. I suggested that he think of different categories: laundry, papers, toys. He can do it that way - it took a long, long time before he could do it himself, though - I had to go remind him of the next category for quite a while. After room-cleaning he gets something (usually a tv show.) It often takes him several hours to clean up a not-so-messy room, but he does it. (For a long time, he refused to have other kids over because they might "make a mess" he'd have to clean up.)

Here's a suggestion - put this behind a password: https://marvel.com Allow him to look at it for X number of pages/amount of time as a reward.

Wow, you all really got this figured out! Speaking from the perspective of an autistic adult, these are excellent ideas. If I ever manage to get a child of my own, I'll remember your techniques.

Bribery does work! The trick is to figure out what they would view as a reward.
I know this wasn't brought up, and I don't know if anyone here engages in this, but punishment doesn't work. I could not understand what purpose it had or how it was connected to whatever they thought I did wrong, so for me it just felt like random hurtful things that made me confused, sad or angry. If you don't understand the motivations behind why people act like they do, you don't understand the motivation behind "punishments" either.



The thing is, the less math-inclined and more visual of aspies do not use equations like most people do. And there's often a big problem when we get to really advanced math as it is harder to visualize. We get the correct answer without going trough those steps, so we can't show you something we didn't do. I was often yelled at by teachers as they thought I was either cheating or being stubborn by not writing answers as equations.
This snippet might be of interest to you if your kid is a visual thinker:






Aspies feel best when they can spend as much time as they please with whatever interests them, as I'm sure you know. These things are closer to a real physical needs than wants.
If someone have to sleep 15 hours a day, and you would try to help them by keeping them awake, they might appear closer to "normal" but would in actuality be tired all the time. Why he can't focus on the schoolwork directly after you let him choose what to do is because you metaphorically just woke him up and he's still sleepy.



I can relate to that so much. I know it's very usual for younger siblings to be annoying, and I don't know what other traits he has, but could there be the possibility that the middle one has ODD? If someone with ODD knows that a person is easily irritable, they can't help themselves from irritating them.
Great that he's doing fine otherwise in that department! But aspies become teenagers just like any NT... I think there might be a few more meltdowns awaiting when he now enters that emotional/hormonal rollercoaster, so just hold tight.

This is awesome. My son is like this and gets so bored with the repetitive drills. I told him to look at it as executive function practice at being bored. It does not good academics-wise. Once he knows it, he knows it.

LOL - my son's science teacher gave him an assignment of "studying" a page for 15 minutes every day and getting us to sign it. Of course, the mere idea of looking at a piece of paper he had already committed to memory for 15 minutes a day was so horrifying that he "forgot" it (I do think he actually forgot, but I think the forgetting was, shall we say, helped, by the fact that he didn't want to do it.)

In math, I'm willing to allow DS to do it whatever way he wants...except when he's not supposed to use a calculator (or look in the back of the book - one year the answers were there!) So he has to show some kind of work that indicates he didn't do either, even if it is just writing down the problem. I do understand that he may think unconventionally, though - so I'm not expecting the same kind of "work" I would from an NT.

You pegged the middle child perfectly. He is diagnosed ADHD and ODD. He has gotten a lot better in the last year or so, too. I think that idea of thinking of them as a third younger, definitely applies to at least some areas of development for an ADHD child as well. He definitely doesn't have the social issues and the generally uneven skill development that his brother has, but impulse control, executive function, ability to focus? On a bad day he's at maybe a 3-4 year old level. A good day is more like 9-10 year old (he'll be 12 in June). And then throw the ODD in there and you've got a kid that is very...trying at times. He loves being around people, and hanging out with friends, but he gets easily overstimulated and it sets him off on a self feeding cycle of being annoying (on purpose), hyperactive, impulsive, loud, oppositional. I figure that if my oldest can ever handle being around his brother on a bad cycle like that without losing his cool that he'll be pretty set for dealing with anyone in life. Not that I'd ever want to purposefully make him deal with a person behaving that badly, but you can't pick your brothers.

On math:
I know that he would rather do the math in his head, and we've had some tantrums over it in the past. The problem for him is that, he misses too many answers doing it in his head. Or he'll just know the answer to a simple problem, like say, 18 divided by 3. And since that is such a simple problem it deeply offends him when I ask him to write it down and tell me the steps of how to divide 18 by 3. The problem comes about when he is then presented with something like 981 divided by 18. Any number that is too big for him to easily see in his mind, he then has no idea how to deal with it. Then he gets frustrated and refuses to try on any number too big to do in his head. I've tried approaching the smaller problems that he hates to write down as tools to learn the rules. I've always seen math as very simple. Once you know how to carry or borrow in two digit numbers, or to multiply or divide two digit numbers there is no difference in that and a ten digit number other than how much space they are going to take up to answer. It is exactly the same procedure over and over. I just can't convince him to learn the procedure. I've pretty much decided to give up and let him use a calculator which is really what most people do once they get out of school anyway. Then I feel bad about that, because there have been plenty of times when I needed to do some math in my head or on scratch paper like that, and didn't have time to search down a calculator. I guess cell phones kind of eliminate the searching, but still...

On cleaning:
The only way he can clean a room is to push everything into one big pile in the center of the room and then pull categories out of the pile. Pulling categories out of the scattered room is not an option. It has to be in one big pile, which is fine with me so as long as it gets done.

bribery:
I will definitely try using that Marvel.com website as bribery. There is another one called Marveltoys.net that he loves. It has documentation of just about every Marvel action figure ever produced, with pictures, info on when and where they were manufactured, what accessories came with the toys, the articulation points, variants in the coloring, etc. He really likes being able to categorize his collection this way, and to target toys he wants to add to his collection.