How to combat arguing

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I don't mean all arguing. I know that kids argue. I mean a very specific kind of arguing:

Both of my kids, when being given feedback from a grown up regarding their behavior, launch into lengthy arguments and refute everything that is being said to them. Even when they are absolutely wrong, and not in the position to understand that they are wrong or why they are wrong without being able to listen to a more experienced person explain it to them. Or when they are just flat out wrong.

Example: my daughter's intentions are repeatedly misunderstood by her peers and it ends up with lots of hurt feelings on both sides and kids not wanting to play with her. She cannot understand how they are coming to the conclusions they are, yet as an outsider looking in (who's not a kid), I can very clearly understand how they formed their impression and to be honest, the "fault" lies mostly on my daughter's side because the misunderstanding originates because her behavior is incongruent with her inner feelings and intentions. The kids are interpreting her behavior the way almost anyone would. But when I try to explain to her why the kids saw her behavior in a specific way, she argues incessantly and I cannot get through to her, so I cannot teach her what to do differently to avoid the misunderstandings.

I want her to stop arguing and listen.

My son does something similar with his teachers. He argues with them about things he simply shouldn't be arguing about. They are things that he really ought to just listen to them and forgo the argument. Example: He doesn't have his homework done. His teacher asks him why and he says "I didn't know I had homework." So the teacher says "It's written on the board every day." To which he responds (more aggressively) "I didn't know I had homework!" To which the teacher says "You have homework every day." To which he now yells "I didn't know I had homework!! !!" I want him to stop arguing with his teacher and listen. I tried to explain to him that all he really needs to do is say "I am sorry I am unprepared. Let me write the assignment down right now and I will do it in study hall." That makes perfect sense to him when I tell him, but the very next day, he will be back to arguing.

Is this somehow related to the idea of "failing to distinguish between adults and other children in interactions"? Is it related to autism at all? Or are they just mouthy kids? Sometimes I honestly don't know if maybe I just let them get away with too much...Help?

I debated whether to post this here or in the general forum. I'd like feedback not just from parents, but also from people on the spectrum (parents or not).

I think you really have to look at whether or not they have a valid point or not.

I can remember doing the homework thing many, many times.
Problem was - I was telling the truth when I said I didn't know that I had homework. I have literally *no* verbal short term memory. Even if I write it down somewhere, I am likely to forget to look at where it was written down. This kind of thing might not necessarily being arguing just to argue - but may in fact be genuine memory issues, especially short term ones. Of course - they will be so busy doing the usual "we shall measure you by NT expectations and judgements" that they fall to see the underlying cause and address it - which long term can become extremely problematic.

It seems your daughter is trying to find logic that makes sense to her. You can tell her until you a blue in the face, but unless it is extremely logical, it still may not make sense to her.

I guess now is the point to distinguish between - are they genuinely trying to get the truth across about something or otherwise find the truth - or are they simply arguing out of ego? Many times the former can look like the latter simply because that's the standard NT interpretation.

There are of course times when they do simply argue out of ego. I have seen enough on this site. But at least in my experience, kids aren't all that likely to - *unless they are afraid of getting in trouble for something from previous experience and have been conditioned into it*.

And yes, the way they react to other children or to an adult will be the same, because to them, they do not see the social hierarchy. Because of that - each person will be judged on their individual merits and nothing less - and yes that includes, that they won't automatically listen to you or others because you are "adults" or because you are "normal".

This means that pulling out the "listen to me because I am the parent / teacher / adult / NT" card is never going to work. You need to provide sound and extremely logical reasoning to them as an equal as opposed to talking down to them.

Ultimately you're better off at going looking for the underlying cause behind it, because there almost always is one.

Haha arguments with kids and teachers. That is normal. Can not even count on my fingers how many times I had those. Just teach them the boundries and teach them to respect other people oppinions. Not to drive the point too far. As for what you are saying it is normal.

Are they arguing or are they trying to explain things?

I know this from my self and have seen some threads about it here on WP as well. We (often) seem to explain things to a point where NT´s find it to be arguing. I just learned recently (look at my age!!) that what we are supposed to do is to lye flat on the back and say sorry, it was my fault (just like dogs do when they fight). Even though it was not my fault at all. This seems very unjust to me and I like to explain why I did what I did (in the correct order and with all the details )

Due to my age and learning how to function I sometimes finds this irritating when my boys do the same, because they will argue endlessly why they did some minor thing (e.g. why it takes 30 - 40 minutes to get to the act of brushing their teeth). There is always lots of "excuses" - except they are not necessarily excuses but explanations. They might not even know themselves why it takes them so long or why they did what they did, but I guess we need to find logical explanations.

When they are old enough it might be good to explain to them that the easiest thing sometimes will be to just say "sorry" without overstepping all their personal boundaries.

Have you read any of Dr. Greene's books? The Explosive Child or Lost at School? He uses a specific method for communicating with kids that is pretty successful with a lot of kids. He calls it Plan B or collaborative problem solving. You can also check out some videos on his website http://www.livesinthebalance.org/
Here's a brief description from some of his stuff:
"PlanBis comprised o fthreebasic ingredients.The first ingredient– called the Empathy step – involves gathering information from the child
so as to achieve the clearest understanding of his or her concern or perspective on a given unsolved problem. The second ingredient
(called the Define the Problem step) involves entering into consideration the adult concern or perspective on the same unsolved
problem. The third ingredient (called the Invitation step)involves having the adult and kid brainstorm solutions so as to arrive at a plan
of action that is both realistic and mutually satisfactory…in other words, a solution that addresses the concerns of both parties and that
both parties can actually perform"
So in your case with your DD you might start off with something like "I notice that you are having some trouble getting along with some kids at school. What's up with that?" and let her talk. This way you've given her the chance to be heard first and when its your turn, in the next step, you can try to explain that your concern is that when she does X the other kids behave in a way that she doesn't like. Then you guys can try to come up with some ideas for how to avoid the problem in the future.

DS does both things you describe - and I do believe it is an autism thing. I think in the first instance, it is an example of poor pragmatic speech skills - your daughter can neither interpret what's communicated to her nor does she understand what she is communicating. It took DS a couple of years of pragmatic speech therapy and some concrete, real-world examples outside of his experience (like, in books, etc.) for him to figure out that he was living in an entirely different world than the other kids. He still has trouble with this, but these days he is at least open to the idea that there is a possible second interpretation - I think that is actually the most critical piece of addressing a pragmatics deficit, and it took a long time and a lot of work to get there.

How old is your daughter? My son doesn't like books about social skills, but last year I made him read "Diary of a Social Detective" and I think he really learned from it. It's at about a 4th or 5th-grade reading level; it does a very good job of describing the concepts, what to look out for in a miscommunication and it does it in an acceptable narrative form. Examples like the ones in this book offer the opportunity to look at things objectively without the "unfair!" getting in the way. (I did have to make DS read it, but I think he secretly enjoyed the book.) You can also try to find TV shows (My Little Pony is great for this; also Arthur) where the particular issue is shown and discuss that, in a detached way. Then, weeks later, I might bring up an example of a past interaction that went wrong and explain how it corresponds to something we saw in one of the examples.

Part of the key is to work on it when she's not upset and can be objective (I recognize the challenge, there.)

The other issue is pretty well described above. Your son may well think he wrote down the homework, and he gets stuck on that thought (he may well be telling the actual truth - he may have, for instance, checked the board before the teacher wrote down the homework.) This is a situation where I think you need more support from the teacher: ask her to start checking that your son's homework was written down - she can do this either openly or she can just walk past his desk right when the other kids are copying it to make sure he's on track. You can also prompt her to respond with "Well, that does explain why it isn't done. Next time, why don't we agree that you will double-check the blackboard and your assignment notebook before you leave class?"

I find that when DS gets stuck in one of these loops, the best defense is to briskly move on to the next thing or the next step. Of course, if the teacher isn't on board, you're going to have some difficulty with this one. I just got a call from one of my son's teachers over a similar argument, and she was apologizing for saying she was going to call me if he didn't talk more respectfully. I told her that I'd be happy to play bad cop, and she could certainly tell him she's going to call or email me if DS can't maintain a respectful tone. (That being said - I know from experience that DS is capable of doing this or I wouldn't have set it up this way. It's one piece of the puzzle that is easy to forget.)

OK, rambling. I will stop now.

My son is similar. I don't expect him to never argue, but he argues about EVERYTHING and it can be exhausting and frustrating for ME as his mom and an adult, let alone how a child might feel.

I have no answers. I just try to explain to him over and over that some things aren't up for debate. I don't know if he will ever get it.

I'm 14 and this sounds like something I would do if I weren't so afraid of being noticed.

If the teacher says "but you have homework every day" to me, that sounds like saying that he is lying and that the teacher isn't acknowledging what he is saying. I repeat myself quite frequently if the persons response doesn't seem to acknowledge what I'm saying. I'm not saying that your son is right to argue, but if the teacher adjusts what she says so that he knows that his reasoning/excuse has been heard, that might help.

We have this same exact thing. I think another issue with our son is that he is so used to knowing things others do not because of his special interests. He is well aware that sometimes he knows more about something than adults, but he does not know that this does not apply to things that are outside his knowledge base.

He knows adults are in charge but does not necessarily understand he is not their equals, if that makes sense. For example, he thinks that given that many people he knows do not know the years that the various Windows OSs were released that he also knows more about social interactions than they do. Believe me, he doesn't.

I am planning on getting him to understand that different people have different aptitudes, and try to help him figure out what his strengths and weaknesses are without making him feel bad about it. I hoping if I get him to understand this, that he might accept criticism better. He is fine when you can prove he is wrong. Somethings are hard to prove and that is where the trouble comes in. Also he thinks he has better ideas for running the classroom, and it is hard for him to accept that his opinions are not relevant sometimes. Luckily his current teacher is aware not to take it as an affront to her authority, but we will not always be this lucky.

Lot's of food for thought and things to look in to.

One piece of the puzzle that I didn't share is that I recognize that sometimes, particularly with my son, what looks like arguing is not arguing at all. He's merely trying to be heard. He always likes to explain his side and try to negotiate for a more "me-friendly" outcome. I think that most of his teachers recognize this and most of them allow for it to a certain extent. He is generally calm when he does this (though his hands are extremely animated! LOL!)

What I'm talking about here is definite arguing, complete with an escalation in the volume of his voice and an increasingly annoyed or irritated tone. We just had another episode of it right now. He was told to go the ELA study sessions on Tues, Weds, and Thurs. He went yesterday and told me it was "stupid." I told him his teacher recommended it for him because he needs more help and the State exams are coming up. Today I asked him how it went and he said he didn't go. I clarified that he knew he was supposed to go, and he said yes. We then had a 20 minute argument about how stupid it is. Well. He was arguing. I was calm. And yes, I asked him why it was "stupid" and he gave me about 10 different answers, depending upon my response. He then asked me how I would know if he didn't go (Oh, the long lost days when he could not lie. Obviously he is still not good at it because he cued me in to his intention, but he is now at the point where he can rationalize lying to me when sufficiently motivated). I gave him 3 choices: 1 included going and 2 involved not going with various attached consequences. He went ballistic and when that didn't work, he started sobbing (I think it was a mix of really being pushed to the point of tears because of frustration coupled with an exaggeration). Then he said he was "overwhelmed and my brain is blank" which I think was more an attempt at manipulation than the truth. So I wrote the three choices down and told him we did not have to discuss it anymore, and he could tell me when he made his decision. This kind of stuff went on for quite some time. I left to finish dinner and then he told me he would take choice 2 (not going with a consequence), and I told him I was OK with that.

For my daughter, it goes something like:

She: "J wouldn't play with me today."
Me: "Oh? Did she say why?"
"She said it isn't any fun."
"Do you know why she might have said that?"
"No. She is just mean and wants to hurt my feelings."
"What were you doing before she said she wouldn't play with you?"
"Playing."
"Playing what?"
"This game where I (followed by a whole bunch of things that she demands the other "players" do).
"Was that the way J wanted to play?"
"No. She said she wanted to do XYZ."
"Did you let her do XYZ?"
"NO! It's MY game! She always wants to play her game and she never wants to play my game!"
"Remember how we talked about being bossy? Do you think J thought you were being bossy?"
"No! She's just being mean! I was not being bossy!"
"You already told me that you wanted her to follow all of your rules and you wouldn't let her add any of your own. That is being bossy."
"That is NOT being bossy! It is MY game! I can play it the way I want to play it!"
"That is true, but that might mean that other kids don't want to play with you."
"That is NOT WHY! It is because they are mean!"
"I don't think so. I think it is because you are being bossy."
"I AM NOT BEING BOSSY!"
"What does it mean to be bossy?"
"To always have to have things your way."
"You said J had to only play your way. That made her feel that you were being bossy, so she didn't want to play anymore because it was not fun to play."
"I WAS NOT BEING BOSSY! IT WAS MY GAME! SHE IS MEAN. SHE WANTS TO HURT MY FEELINGS!"
"Maybe you could have offered to play her way after 10 minutes. That way she would get a turn to. Then both of you could have fun."
"It's not fun to play her way."
"So you think she should have to play your way?"
"YES! THAT'S WHAT I HAVE SAID!"
"But, sweetie, that's being bossy. J did not want to play with you because you were being bossy. Tomorrow you can apologize to her and say you didn't mean to be bossy and then let her choose the game."
"I AM NOT BOSSY! SHE IS MEAN!"

It seems endless sometimes.

I think that for my son's math teacher, I am going to suggest that instead of asking him why he didn't do his homework, just to state "You didn't do your homework. When will you turn it in?"

ROFL!

So, the two choices that involved not going were

1) Don't go to ELA. Do ELA review with Mom when you get home. May or may not be harder than the school review. After you can play Minecraft.
2) Don't go to ELA. Don't do ELA review with Mom. Don't play Minecraft.

"MOM! I just thought of something...consequences are supposed to teach you something. How is NOT playing Minecraft going to teach me anything about ELA? That's not even related!"

Good try, my boy!

It's because of two things: first, you aren't factoring in the needs and wants of the other person and second, you aren't considering what they may be communicating to you socially (nonverbally.)

In other words, (I can't think of a way to say this without it sounding rude and I don't mean it that way) communication is not all about you and what you want. Some of it is about other people and what they want. Some of it is also about the circumstances, which may add more variables. You have to negotiate things, and if you have trouble assessing the other person's point of view naturally, you have to ask - you should not assume that they A) know what you are thinking unless you explicitly tell them and B) Feel the same way that you do unless they explicitly (verbally and/or nonverbally) tell you.

If/then logic only works if there is only one set of possibilities and is only sometimes successful when applied to living things (just ask my dog.) It does a bang-up job when you work with binary, though.