daughter has become very defiant and mean

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My older son aged 10 was recently diagnosed with aspergers syndrom. We had always known something was off with him but no one was ever able to give us an answer till recently. He has a high IQ and had no delays in any areas. Except for his odd social behavior and frequent meltdowns over ridiculousness (losing was a big one, or his inability to handle change or disappointment).

My middle son is easy going, laid back, smart,sweet a could be , the teacher pride of the classroom. called all the time for playdates etc.

Now, my youngest just completed pre-school. She has been receiving speech since age 2 and behavioral therapy for her auditory delay (memory delay). She is an excellent athlete however and excels beyond her age in many sports. BUT, over the past year she has started to become very mean and full of attitude when she doesn't get what she wants, or for no reason at all. She is mean to other children out of the blue. She might be playing with a child and then the child might accidently bump into her or knock over her toy , splash her etc (something very minor) and she will turn on that child and say very mean things or act obnoxiousness to the child. example spred her legs wide so the child can't sit next to her , or hog the water fountain when the other child wants a turn, hog the toy so that kid can't have a turn etc.

we have taught her better then this, and no she is not spoiled, and she is punished accordingly for bad behavior. I asked her teacher if she does this in school. according to the teachers she is well behaved, well mannered and a real leader in class. very well liked. This however, is not consistent with what I am witnessing. I have seen her act like a real "mean girl" to many of her friends. (not always) but selectively.

I sometimes feel like maybe she has ADHD but she dosn't totaly fit the bill.
I have read that aspergers presents differently in girls then in boys. I am wondering if she may also have this disorder?

But, I have also read that "aspergers" people, do not have speech delays (she had a speech delay).

any moms of girls, both NT and Aspi, have any insight to this? Her behavior is growing worse each day and she has started becoming fresh and defiant to adults/coaches as well. not wanting to participate, only wanting to play. and play "her way".

I can not allow her to continue down this path. I need some advise to help her get back on the right track so she does not alienate herself and create a bad reputation for herself as difficult child amongst teachers and coaches and other parents.

It's true that AS presents differently in girls. Some of what you are describing sound like sensory processing issues (which may be on their own or may be a part of AS) My son acts like this, he has a proprioperceptive deficit (knowing where you are in space - it's why field sobriety tests are done - alcohol affects proprioperception in NT people.) Since he didn't have good awareness of where he was, someone touching him - even if it was obvious - seemed to come out of the blue, and this would upset him. Another way he got upset is that kids figured out that "bumping" him would send him into a rage, so they did that to him to bully him.

The "hogging" could be a sign of Theory of Mind problems, social cue problems, etc. Do you ask her if she noticed the other child? What does she say?

I guess, as I said earlier in another post, I am pro-assessment. I don't think it can hurt to have a professional you trust check it out.

I would love have an assement done on her, but as part of her services years ago she had several assesments done by a psycologist who basically gave me and my husband several "parenting" tips. This was the same thing for all the psycologists who met with my older son. It was not till he was 10 that a specialist said, wow, he's not ........ he has apergers. I feel like because she is only 5 I will just keep getting the same run around with these dr's until she is older.

Also, the other challenge is that where we live there is only 1 team of truly qualified dr's who specialize in spectrum disorders and is actually covered by my insurance. There is a 7-9 month wait time for an initial appointment.

So for now I must go it alone and try to help her as best I can with the resources I have available.

Can the school do an assessment? You might ask for an evaluation by a school OT to check for the sensory stuff, and a speech therapist to check if any of the issues are because of a pragmatics deficit. At the very least, it's a start. Explain your concerns, and they will probably give you some ideas on how to handle things even if you aren't awarded therapy.

In terms of defiance, many of us have been helped by the techniques used in the book The Explosive Child or some variation. Basically, it's about figuring out if there is a problem that needs a solution. I've found most of the serious behavioral issues my son faces wound up being addressed by some serious detective work on my part, followed by solving the problems I uncovered after that.

To me this is possibly a part of the trouble you are having. I can guarantee you, it is NOT ridiculous to him. If you can start to understand that and figure out what his issues really are, you will make more progress.



Again, it is not out of the blue to her. She has a valid (to her) reason for her behavior and what you need to do is meet her where she is at and figure out what is behind the behavior. I agree with momsparky's suggestion of "The Explosive Child". Dr Greene hits the nail on the head. It takes some effort to implement his strategies because they are quite different from how many of us have thought of parenting but it works for us. You have to start giving your kid the benefit of the doubt that she is doing the best she can with what she's got. The "she knows better" attitude isn't going to get you anywhere.


If you haven't already, get on the waiting list now! You will not be doing your DD any favors by waiting any longer than absolutely necessary.

Hi. My middle child is 9yrs and we have always thought there was something 'different' about her and its only recently after constantly feeling a real 'groundhog day' over specific behaviors that we're at last going down the path of assessment. I suspect Aspergers and she is very defiant, moody, headstrong, has no empathy what so ever and in her eyes she is perfect and everything is everyones else's fault!! I have to say she has always had these traits, even as a new baby she would not even let her dad hold her-it had to be me. I first noticed her being quite verbally nasty to a 'friend' when she was around 3yrs, again as you said, it seemed out of the blue and I was mortified!! !! Reading through her baby book at the age of 3mths I have wrote about her being ' a bit of a grump and wanting to rule the roost'! (and that would have been written politely as its her book to keep-so wouldn't want to upset her!! ! )

I would get her name on the waiting list, I am in NZ and searched for a while to find someone who will specialize in girls and I hope I have found the right person, our appointments are in August but now I feel like its a waiting game and should be doing something in the interim. Its extremely difficult to bite your tongue when they are 'acting' out and seeming very unreasonable and my husband finds it more difficult. I think I feel lots of guilt now as to how we have treated her over the years when actually it may not have been that she was/is just being 'naughty'.

Oh yes, her school teacher also said she's fine in school apart from sometimes leaving her chair and needing to be put back on task and some bickering at play times. She may feel that she is 'fine' but actually the fact that she then went onto fill in the questionnaire assessment and managed to put that 'sometimes' DD doesn't seem to be aware of social hierarchy was quite significant and that she felt DD was quite 'sexually aware' for her age as she was found 'holding hands' in class with a boy whom she seems to have got friendly with!!?? To me this is more like she doesn't understand that its not appropriate to do so and given that all her friends are in the year above her and talking about 'boys' all the time, she is likely to be thinking it helps her 'fit in'. Aaaargh!! !!

I have an NT daughter and an ASD son and not only do I see ASD v. NT differences, but also girl v. boy differences.

At your daughter's age, girls can get sassy and, at times, mean (not that teachers or parents see that much of it; they do it most amongst themselves). Your daughter is, no doubt, seeing a lot of that type of behavior, so she is going to experiment with it. But ASD or not ASD, at 5 she isn't going to do it well, and it is going to come out at surprising times. If she is ASD, that will just compound the randomness and strangeness of it all.

Girls can also push hard against mom in a way boys just don't. I heard once it is because they spend so much time with you, desperately need you, but also need to establish their identity separate from you - and the last is more difficult for them because of the shared gender. So, things can be push-pull.

I've spent a lot of time with my kids asking them what they think they just did and why they just did it. It is an effective, calm way to start, because then you tend to get the more honest answers, and you need those to get insight into what is going on in their minds. One interesting thing with my NT daughter , who is quite a bit younger than my ASD son, is that from very young she picked up on how we handled my son, and what he was allowed to get away with, and she assumed she would have the same allowances, even when she really did not need them, but she was also able to articulate that, which led to some interesting discussions.

She also figured out pretty fast what we wanted to hear, and learned to tailor her responses to us accordingly. She can spin so many layers of conscious and unconscious self-protection that getting in her head is really difficult for us at least partly ASD parents. My son simply isn't capable of either that level of interpretation on other people, or that level of construction of rational. If my son wanted chocolate when we said no, he'd demand chocolate and fight us head on for it. If my daughter wanted chocolate, she would seem like she had accepted our answer, and then find the way around it. That is much more common with girls than with boys.

Anyway. I feel like I'm rambling and maybe not saying what I mean to, but my overall sense reading your descriptions was that some parts are typical girl (that you would not have seen with the boys), and some parts sound ASD. I get what you are saying about her possibly being to young for the experts to pick up on it, but with your son diagnosed, you do have a better chance, and many high functioning kids are assessed in the 5-8 age range.