executive function/obedience

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Hi all. So of course my son has a very very very hard time following instructions. Go downstairs and get your shoes is an instruction that will be unheard several times, avoided as much as possible, and then attempted with inaccurate results a few times, and lately even reported as completed properly when it wasn't. Of course chores and self care stuff is even more difficult.

However, there are rare times when what I say is obeyed immediately. For example:

- You can now get on your computer. Instant recognition and understanding and instant jumping up to do it.

- Your friends are in the barn. Same as above - instant. Eyes light up, huge smile, off he goes.

Some things get instant recognition sometimes and sometimes it takes a while, but still way shorter of a period than something he doesn't want to do. Such as:

- You get to have a dish of ice cream tonight.

- Let's go to the dollar store.

You get the idea. So, is this normal, or is it a sign that he's really just a disobedient brat? Is there something about highly rewarding activities that cuts right thru the executive dysfunction?

I bet he's processing words and not instructions.
For example:

"Downstairs" .. what about it? I will go downstairs and do what? May then get distracted.
"Computer" - self-explanatory. He gets to play. No instruction needed.
"Barn" - Something must be happening there. I'm going to check it out. Instruction over-ridden by curiosity.

You are right. He DOES have a hard time following instructions.
1) He has difficulty with organizing your instructions
2) He has difficulty with memory
3) He has difficulty with processing information
4) He may "hear" things that are not being said. (I learned this recently)

Having executive dysfunction myself, the overall answer is simple: YES

The less straightforward answer is sometimes even highly rewarding activities can be left undone due to executive dysfunction.

I highly recommend the book "Smart but Scattered." It was recommended to me by this group and I found it very interesting. My son and my daughter's profiles are the exact opposite, and mine matches my son's almost exactly. Now I understand why things are they way they are.

But also keep in mind that sometimes kids are going to be disobedient. It's a normal--even healthy--part of development. Particularly at your son's age, he may start to strive for more independence which may result in him doing what he wants rather than what you want. I always remind myself that my hope is that one day my son will move out of the house. In order for him to do that, he needs to be able to stop relying on me to prompt and initiate everything. Some of his attempts at becoming "his own person" are bound to result in a clash between my will and his. It's part of growing up and part of my job as a parent to help him work through it.

Being disobedient does not make him a brat. It makes him a separate being than you. And a kid.

yeah g'day.

I find this to be unusually funny!

Thanks, and yes, I don't consider it bratty that he can't follow my commands and forgets what he's doing. I am conflating a few separate threads that I've been writing on here. I am referring to his screaming no, I don't have to, you don't have the right to tell me what to do, and his violence and aggression such as shoving his chest up into me or throwing things or slamming things down. or the times when he's bugging us in a way that needs to stop and he can't seem to stop, such as rubbing his nose on his, rubbing his feet on us, continually charging into our space like he's going to hit us or throw something at us or stab us with whatever he's holding in his had.

So, bad word for this thread, when all I really meant to address was the differences between when he can and seemingly can't do as he's been asked. I'm mainly interested in how sometimes I can say certain things and he immediately attends to what I'm saying and responds right away. I'm guessing he just knows very well that those two things in particular are very rewarding, the friends showing up and being able to suddenly get on his computer, and so he can suddenly focus in on those things like a laser.

That super motivating reward also seems to help him be able to do multiple tasks much easier - such as when I say "The boys just pulled in, but before you run out there to see them you have to pick those legos up, throw away that trash and move your shoes." He is almost always in those circumstances able to do all the tasks right away. I guess that's good for him to be able to do stuff when he's actually motivated.

My kids' neurologist once said "A kid with ADHD does something right once, and we hold it against him forever." The way he explained it is that, as is true with many symptoms of a neurological origin, what is possible one day may not be possible another day. There are many factors that go into play. Level of ambient noise, previous levels of overload, feelings of physical discomfort, preoccupation with something else, too much light...all sorts of things.

But you are right. It is sometimes very tricky to tell the difference between what they CAN'T do vs what they CHOOSE NOT TO do. Especially since on two different days, those things might be the same thing. For as good as I think I am, I make mistakes way more often than I'd like to admit.

But you know...in a way your son's defiance is completely "normal," and in some ways I think it is even...I don't know what word to use...necessary? Imagine if he only ever did exactly what you said. What would happen if you were not there to guide him? Having never thought for himself, he may be at a complete loss as to what to do. I, personally, find back-talking very challenging to deal with. It is one of the few things that can really push my buttons quick. So, even though I am not saying not to deal with it, I do try to force myself to put it into perspective so that I don't respond in a way that will make it worse, ykwim?

Yes I know just what you mean. I have always been a parent that likes some challenge. I don't want automatons. I especially love rational argument or explanations of how something makes the kids feel. Of course I don't get that very often. I guess I'm trying to figure out what I can do to encourage that level of motivation from time to time, or that ability to respond positively.

For a while we had a friend of my daughter's renting a room. He was about 22, and my son idolized him. This guy I'll call Bob was interested in helping me with my son, and he took an active role in trying to get him to do chores and stuff around the ranch and to treat me with respect. Bob worked on the ranch in exchange for his rent so he had occasion to be out doing chores. My son was SO MOTIVATED to do stuff with him and almost always did whatever he said. He would tune in when Bob talked, respond in the affirmative, then get up and actually do whatever it was. It was nice to see because I guess it gives me hope for my son's future. But it was hard to see also, because I get discouraged that he's not like that more often with the members of his family. My husband felt sort of jealous, but I wasn't jealous. I loved that my son had at least somebody on the planet who could motivate him and was a positive influence. And if I wanted my son to focus on something specific for the day, I'd just tell Bob and he'd make sure they focused on it. Like math one day (which he still did with me but at least he was happy to do it for Bob!), or gathering up garbage, or feeding the horses. I do wish I could help my son be more motivated more of the time. Both because it's good for him to feel good about himself and it's easier for me! He's a big strong boy and can really really help out around here, but he often chooses not to.

Sometimes we'll have a serious conversation where he'll ask me how to succeed in life, and I'll list some positive traits he has and then gently say something like "well hopefully you'll be interested in your job since getting motivated to do some stuff that you aren't really interested in isn't your strongest suit" and he'll say "yeah, I know" and I'll say "let me know if you can think of a way I can help you" and that's about the extent of it. I don't call him names or belittle him or say get off your lazy ass or anything like that, and when he does help out I say a calm sort of praise thing like "thanks, I couldn't have lifted all those bags of chicken feed, so you were a real help" or better, he overhears me telling somebody else what a help I am. And when he sees I really need help, that's when he's likely to be more motivated than usual and jump up and help me, and maybe even say "mom, seriously? you know you can't lift that, just let me do it." So I don't think I'm damaging him (too much) and I just wanted to point this out so that people reading me complain about his lack of self starting and motivation won't think I'm abusing him over it.

I quoted this part because you have to look at the specific behavior and request to figure out why he has trouble complying. Not all requests are equal; his abilities to execute them are not always equal. One of the first things you should do to sort out these behaviors is learn how to sort them into different boxes, and then choose the protocol based on which box it is in.

When he gets aggressive he is, I believe, as I said before, no longer in emotional control. He has moved past agitation towards meltdown. The goal is to figure out what gets him there, and work with him on preventing the escalation.

When he is doing those annoying things like rubbing noses or feet, he is most likely engaging in a version of self-calming. It is probably a sensory stim to him. He may not even be aware he is doing it. In the moment, he feels agitation and reflexively he stims to re-center himself. Instructing him to stop can actually be counterproductive, in accelerating the path to aggressive behavior. What we've done in our home is redirect those stims if they involve touching someone else (the rule to never touch others without their permission is supreme), but otherwise allow them at home, teach him to control them in public.

Other instructions may simply be vague to him, ill-timed (he wants to finish the other thing he is doing first), or simply something that he doesn't understand you expect "now." Going downstairs to pick up shoes, after all, literally can be done anytime. Problem is, once he shelves it in his mind, he'll forget it, so sometimes the better way to phrase it is, "I need you to pick up your shoes that are downstairs and bring them upstairs, and I would like you to do that now before you forget." Of course, if he also has audio processing issues, that command is now too long to process, so it can quickly become a catch 22. You need to be precise, 100% literal, and brief.

And so on.

Does that make any sense?

Our kids can really be amazing, can't they? I like your approach overall, and think that making progress will be mostly a matter of understanding more of how the ASD brain works generally, and your son's brain works specifically. And ... putting those pieces of the puzzle together with your own unique neurology and how you see things.

I have told my son, btw, that learning to follow instructions IS a part of succeeding in life, and that he is unlikely to EVER get away from it. Oh, he had examples where he thought he'd get away without it, but I could pretty easily show how he couldn't expect to live by those examples. That helped motivate him to learn to do it. Sometimes you do something despite having zero motivation for it, simply because you have to. Its a life lesson.

Thank you thank you thank you, yes, makes sense, and yes they sure can be amazing sometimes! Great day today so far. What's different, I don't know. I feel like I've had so many years of trying different ways of phrasing things and it feels so random but maybe there is just something I'm missing.

OP, We have exactly the same issue here. My daughter is 7, diagnosed with Aspergers, and will do not a single thing she is asked to do, never has. I do mean not a thing, e.g. getting dressed, eating dinner, brushing her teeth. Forget about chores, as she has no responsibilities like that, as she can't even get on with the essential stuff never mind any extras. For every task, she has to be reminded, persuaded, coaxed, argued with, over and over. She can be a little aggressive, if I get agitated or angry, e.g. because we're risking being late for school.

But, if it's anything related to play, then she'll do it no problem. Our issue is trying to stop her playing, in order to do all the other stuff she needs to do. It's the school holidays and we have a free day, as the activity I booked has been cancelled. It's now 4.20pm and she still hasn't had her hair combed. Normally that would be a problem, but we're having thunder storms and she's not going outside for now. As I've not been so pro-active in trying to get her to have her hair combed, it simply hasn't happened.

However, I do have high hopes for her. She is a lovely girl really and I'm so proud of her achievements in school and her after school classes. She's very bright and so enthusiatic about stuff that could land her in related employment some day.

Her work life might be OK, but I do worry about what her personal/ home life might be like. We're working on it, but the aggression is causing a step backwards. She's seems to be becoming more determined to do as she pleases, as she gets bigger. She's talking about going to live in Madeira when she's older, but I'm wondering how she could possibly manage to live without support from us. I know it's a long way off, but she's way behind her peers just now. She really has such a lot of catching up to do.

I've no advice, as we seem to be failing just now. I wanted to wish you good luck with it all.

Yes, there is. See, there are two kinds of motivation - internal motivation and external motivation.

Internal motivation is when you find something intrinsically rewarding. Feeling and responding to this kind of motivation has nothing to do with executive functions - instead, it's handled by the reward centers of the brain, in a completely different region. Mood disorders such as depression can affect internal motivation, but executive dysfunction has no effect on the power of internal motivation.

In contrast, external motivation is when you force yourself to do something to gain some sort of external benefit, even though you're not really all that interested in the thing. Generating this kind of motivation is an executive function, handled by the frontal lobes. Difficulty with external motivation is a common feature of executive dysfunction.

Incidentally, the fact that internal motivation is unaffected can be used to the kid's advantage. This is why using special interests as motivators can be so effective for AS kids, because if you do it right you will make the activity that is paired with the interest gain some of the interest's intrinsic reward for the child. For example, I find it extremely difficult to make myself study a subject on a regular basis. I find it hard to focus, can't keep to a schedule, etc. But if the subject is a special interest of mine, then I'll study without even trying to, because it's just so fun to read stuff about that subject. (I'm still inefficient at studying, because that's a different executive function. But at least I can actually do it.) Luckily, my special interest is something I can major in in university.

Yes! I hate when that happens! Sometimes I find myself faking inability when I can do something, just so people won't expect me to do it when I can't.

Thanks ettina, that's what I was wondering about. Good to know.