Won't Take Advice

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DS, who is almost 9, will not take my advice about anything. I try to warn him about behaviors that might make other people angry or unhappy with him. I try to explain social rules to him. I suggest things he could do or say to make interactions smoother. He disagrees with me about everything, does it his own way, and the results are almost always what I said they would be.
Is there anything I can do about this, or should I just let him learn the hard way? He is relentlessly outgoing, but his social skills are TERRIBLE. Even another student who I think is on the spectrum has told him he's very rude and weird.

I'm guessing that you are the parent?

It sounds like he's just going to have to learn the hard way. You can keep giving advise, but gently and calmly, knowing that whatever you say will take a few years to kick in. Think of it as planting seeds. Some of them will survive and will work their way into his philosophical tool box.

He might not even remember where your gems of wisdom came from, which is a good thing. If you push too hard and make a memorable argument, he'll reject the advice more strongly and it will take longer to reconsider. If it's a useful little nugget and not attached to anyone who will say, "I told you so," it will be easier to pick up.

I agree with Tahitiii.

He'll have to learn the hard way, perhaps with a bloody nose and black eye for good measure.

It's like being between a rock and a hard place, both of which are stubborn.

First, is he the one in which you and he had difficulty with that math problem?

My opinion is to question him to understand his underlying premises. He is going by a set of assumptions that he has. If you want to change his behavior then change the assumptions. To do this, he will need to find better assumptions to work under. To do this you have to question the assumptions he is under to eliminate contradictions to his thinking. This is called Socratic questioning.

All he is going to perceive is that everyone is mistreating him and in his mind being unfair to him for no apparent reason. He may have heard the phrase "be yourself." In his mind, he may be being himself and everyone else has contradictory demands and are being daft. So, you have to thoroughly question him to understand what assumptions he is working under and if they contradict then show how they contradict.

Let him learn the hard way, that is what mine did and if I complained about it, she told me that is because I did X so people will do/think X. Things I got the hard way was not being liked, kids not wanting to play with me or wanting me around, getting teased, kids thinking I am mean.

To me, that is not enough. It's not enough for me that x causes b. I would want to know why x causes b. Why would kids not want to play with me or want me around because I did X? Why would they think I was mean? Even as a child I would ask these questions including what being mean is.

Yes.



I ask him all kinds of questions, trying to figure out what he's thinking. He doesn't communicate very well though, despite being very verbal. It's hard to explain, but a lot of the things he says don't make sense or don't seem to be related to the topic being discussed.



That's exactly what he thinks. He also thinks his father and I are unfair to him most of the time. Other times, he blames all his problems on himself and asks me to sell all his toys because he says he doesn't deserve any. He has very extreme thinking when he's upset.

What sort of behavhiors, I mean if its stuff that is actually rude/mean and he wont take any advice perhaps he will have to learn the hard way. But being on the spectrum he's not going to be able to 'hide' all traits or anything and some of the traits are harmless. Trouble is people still might pick on someone for the harmless traits....it happened to me a lot the 'learn the hard way' philosophy does not quite work with that since usually that more turns into bullying....so I mean it could be some of the advice hes simply is unable to follow, with some he might be stubborn......or he might have a hard time understanding how he can effect other people so might need to be taught more about that.

But I think it sort of depends on what the other kids are reacting negatively to...if he is being rude/mean then yeah I wouldn't consider it bullying if people don't really like him....but if its a hes different so he's excluded and bullied situation or if that is what got him to the point of acting rude then he needs help not to learn the hard way. But just not a lot of info in the OP about the details of the situatoin.

1. What are the things that he says that make no sense to you?

2. What is the criteria or rubric that you use that determines relation?

3. If you do not mind, will you humor me by answering this question. Can you tell me the relationship between a pair of socks and emptiness? I am asking this question to illustrate a point.





IMHO, One of the most foremost invaluable tools he can have is the knowledge of what he truthfully knows and that he knows that he knows not and is aware that he knows that he knows not. The path to wisdom and enlightenment is the awareness of one's own ignorance of what is in the sky, what is on the ground and what is under the ground and the desire to rectify this ignorance.

It's stuff that's actually rude. I'm not talking about stimming or fidgeting or speaking pedantically. I'm talking about grabbing people from behind by the shoulders, repeatedly, while they're yelling at him to stop. That's how he often initiates play. He tries to force other kids to play what he wants and follow his rules, and won't go away if they say they don't want to play. The other day, some local kids threatened to sic their dogs on him for this behavior (which is both horrifying and oddly understandable).

1. Sometimes he'll say something completely random, like suddenly mentioning a game he wants to get. Or he'll mention something that happened months ago, but speaks as if it just happened. All kinds of randomness. Often, I get caught up trying to chase down one of these tangents and lose track of my original point. Which I suppose could be intentional on his part, but I don't think it is because he speaks that way all the time.

2. That's hard to answer, but I try to imagine every direct and indirect relationship that I can. I try to think of every way that what he's saying could possibly have some connection to the topic. It's like CSI with words.

3. Ok. A pair of socks can be empty of feet. If the socks belonged to a loved one who has gone away, then looking at them might make you feel a sense of emptiness. It depends on the definition of emptiness.

That sounds like me as a kid and it always hurt to hear my mother say why other kids didn't want me around or why I was being teased, etc. but the truth hurts sometimes. She could have just sugarcoated it saying "Oh those kids are just mean because they don't like the way you talk and you don't need those kids. They are just mean kids who don't like kids who came from special ed" but she didn't. Plus I would have wondered why other kids in special ed have friends and are well liked and I am not so my BS raider would have gone off. It would have just show me how different I really am.

That is the sort of thing that my son started doing last year. I wish I had an answer. The problem, with us, anyway, is that he does not understand why people won't want to do things his way. He doesn't have Theory of Mind to understand different preferences. He doesn't understand why he has to compromise if he wants friends, and he is unwilling to do so. He wants to have the proverbial cake and to eat it it too. No one helped him on the spot when the behavior started emerging, and his persistence and associated issues escalated.

I don't think remote advice from me was at all helpful. I think he needed the teacher or a more competent aide, than the class had, to guide him. He might have been more willing if it was done right away, when he first started doing it. Then he started getting into trouble for the grabbing...

I would focus most immediately on extinguishing any physicality so he doesn't get into trouble. Then see if he will complain to you about not making friends. It is easier for your advice to be taken if it is actually asked for. The other thing I would try to do is turn it around and ask if he would like people doing that stuff to him. You might get some ToM progress.

We have yet to pass this stage, so take all I say with the proverbial grain of salt.

Have you tried therapy based on Michele Garcia Winner's Social Thinking yet?

That's something I would've thought of as well. Another way I would've thought of it is that the space that the socks occupy themselves in is empty of emptiness. If you look at this set A = {(),(),()} this set A is empty of non-emptiness. if set A={sock} then this set is empty of emptiness. () means empty set.

I will not introduce you to the Law of Fives.

http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/Law_of_Fives

The Law of Fives states simply that: ALL THINGS HAPPEN IN FIVES, OR ARE DIVISIBLE BY OR ARE MULTIPLES OF FIVE, OR ARE SOMEHOW DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY APPROPRIATE TO 5.

The Law of Fives is never wrong


What it means is you can find a way to make anything related to anything, someway, somehow.

Let's say you have a random number generator that is configured to spits out a number between 1-4. We call this one a. 1 is the minimum and 4 is the maximum. We have another one called b which spits out a number between 1-4 as well. This generator determines the maximum in the range set of a. Now we have another random number generator called c. It will spit out a number between 1-4 that is even. This number determines the maximum of b.


c determines b.
b determines a.
a determines c.

Going back to random number generator a imagine that the number it spits out determines minimum in the range. What we have is a system of randomness and chaos but yet as you see there is a system of order in the chaos. We have ordered chaos.

My point is you may see chaos and randomness where there may be order. If one can discern the pattern and structure of his thinking then one can use his very thinking to develop a better way to think.

Are you understanding what I'm trying to say or am I confusing the heck out of you?

Neither my husband or son respond well to advice. But they are receptive to increasing their data base of information, and then using that to basically reach the conclusion I might have recommended.

So, basically, change the approach and wording.

But he'll still probably learn most things the hard way.