To change or not to change, that is the question

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Well it is a problem because people are being made to feel condescended to. I initially tried to put the tone and the insistence on this one answer as The Truth to the side in my mind because I felt that the main reason was probably the OPs own rigidity and lack of theory of mind as opposed to hucksterism.

That said, I think the comments are more than fair, and frankly useful for someone who is attempting to market a product/solution. If you can't understand how someone is going to interpret what you write, then you are going to have trouble selling your written (drawn) words.

Ladies and gentlemen,

All this is actually pretty simple: I wrote a book, because my wife insisted I wrote it. And my wife insisted, because she thinks my message can help other families. All this has already been explained, ugh, in my book. (Sorry, ha.)

Our society is set up pretty simply: freedom of speech. If anybody doesn't agree with my thinking, they can perfectly go ahead and write up their own books and set up their own websites. That's how a serious exchange of opinions can really happen. A book in itself is not any requirement, but it shows how serious a person is about his/her message. I think all relevant messages in our society eventually appear in the form of books.

Controversy is daily bread and butter for people in science. At this level, I would even call it friendly. I am a real person with real friends. Trust me, I go around town making friends without troubles.

The verbs we use are: adults CHANGE, children DEVELOP. Why? Because children change everyday, as they develop. That's a given, right? When you use the verb CHANGE in the context of children, then it tells me there is a problem.

I never aimed at changing my children, it has never been my goal. My focus is always on SKILLS, not behaviors. When the word "misbehave" was mentioned earlier in this thread, I was jolted. Frankly, it's a word that does not even cross my mind. To me, that is a word that does not treat children as equals. I lack that word in my vocabulary with my children, because I always took them as equal-rights human beings. Children will grow up, and be smarter and more successful than you are. Why would anyone want to treat their children any differently?

Throwing tantrums to me is "having beef." Having beef is legitimate. 240+ years ago a whole bunch of citizens had beef with the British imposing tax on tea. They threw a tantrum, and a new nation was born. Some others did not like throwing tantrums. They preferred to behave in a civil way, and those people are called Canadians today...which is officially still under the crown. Two different preferences, two different people.

To me, you address the "beef", the tantrum is gone. As simple as that. Many parents have this unwarranted fear that they will be taken advantage of by their children. To me this reflects a basic lack of understanding about autistic people. Autistic people have severely diminished sense of self: most of them are not even capable of greed, let alone skill at manipulation. You treat them in third person, as equals, and you'll be speaking their language.


Sure, all kids grow up, autistic or not. But one thing I am not changing is: I treat my kids as equal-rights human beings. I can't do it any differently. Because I want to be able to look straight into their eyes for the rest of my life.

If you ask all people on the spectrum, a common theme is this: they want to be treated as equals. This is no accident.


It's there open on Amazon, read the preview of the book there, it's free. It's also mentioned on my website. By the way, I AM autistic. That's the way how I introduce myself to other people. That's the way how we introduce our children to strangers. That's the way how we feel proud about ourselves. I'll borrow another of my wife's saying here. She said: if she had a choice, she would still choose to raise autistic children. Autistic children are just so much more fun, and amazing. And notice that she is not autistic herself.

Do you think I insist on treating everyone as an equal, by accident? Ha, of course not. I've been autistic my entire life. I'll attach this picture, which is included in my Ph.D. thesis in theoretical physics:


You understand this picture, you understand me. The question is, can you really understand this picture? (Yeap, this picture was seen by all professors on my PhD committee. None of them ever raised any concern. Nobody ever said: what are you doing on a serious official write up? Trust me, for all of you making big scenes about proper behavior... in science, we don't care.)

Oh, almost forgot. After you do all your hard work for years, you are done with your PhD thesis, and to whom may you want to dedicate your work? To your loved ones? You bet. Here is the dedication of my PhD thesis. It's rather simple.

I have been the same person ever since I was a little boy. Everyone to me is an equal, autistic or not.

I think somehow most people missed your point that you were able to correctly respond to your children, thus increasing the effectiveness of your teaching. I didn't and I commend you for your efforts, if I ever had children I would hope that I could respond as a fellow autistic to them as well, so that I could better anticipate their needs. Which would of course give predictability to my day-- something of paramount importance since I have Asperger's and ADHD. Or Autism SPectrum Disorder? I think it's called now, level 1.

Your logic is...interesting. Adults both change and develop. Children both change and develop. Just because the word "change" needs to be euphemistically substituted for some reason in your world does not...eh hem...change the fact that people both develop and change. I do get the importance of precision in language and have been deemed a pedant more than once. However, if my daughter is biting my son, I want her to change her behavior. I do not want her to develop. However, when she was late in potty training, I did not want her to change, I wanted her to develop. FTR, she was fully verbal when she bit, so she wasn't doing it because she had no other means to express her anger or frustration. She chose not to use her words and chose to inflict pain on her brother instead. That needs to change, not to develop. She no longer bites, but she does hit...hard and with intention...which both needs to change and is misbehavior.

Likewise, both adults and children misbehave. I have seen more than one parent of a kid on the spectrum assume that all behavior is a direct result of his/her wiring. That is not true. Autistics are human, and just like any other human, they will--on occasion, some more often than others--willfully choose to do something that they should not be doing. When my son sneaks a cookie after I have told him not to, he is misbehaving. He is intentionally and willfully choosing not to follow the established rule. It is not just a "skill" that he is lacking. He is lacking a skill when he fails to put the dishes away properly because he lacks sufficient practice and guidance. It is not misbehavior. When he drops dishes on the floor, that is a direct result of his wiring. It is not misbehavior, and it is not really a "skill" that can be developed either. He has sensory integration issues and sometimes he can not compensate for them.

You find throwing tantrums legitimate....I do not. I do find meltdowns legitimate, but not tantrums. I am not arguing with your statement that "you address the beef, the tantrum is gone." I do not differ with your view that often times autistic behaviors are misunderstood by parents/non-autistics or that the responses to autistic behaviors are often ineffective due to this lack of understanding. We agree there. But, although I have the ultimate respect for my kids, I do not see them as my equals. Not yet. They are my responsibility. I will sometimes have to exert authority over them, simply because they have not yet developed to the point where that is not necessary. One day they will be my equals, but not today. Not yet. That doesn't mean I don't have the utmost respect for them. I have respect for my employees at work, too, but organizationally speaking, they are not my equal. Recognizing they are not my equal does not mean I treat them with disrespect. I never do. You do not need to see someone as your "equal" to hold them in high regard and treat them respectfully. In my experience, parents who view and treat their kids as their equals, almost always end up making grave errors. I am not predicting that will happen with you eikonabridge, because I do not know you, nor your family, but in my experience that framework ends up being harmful, especially when kids get to the pre-teen/teen years when they inevitably start to test the boundaries.



I do not think anyone has missed his point. I think we all agree that your interactions with your kids will be most effective when you respond appropriately to them.

I do think, however, that he has missed our point that he is prescribing one specific set of responses for all parents of all kids on the spectrum based on his own limited experience, and that we are objecting to his assumption that because it worked with his kids, it will work with all autistic kids everywhere. It worked for his kids. It may work for some other kids somewhere, so it is worth sharing as an option. But it is not a panacea.

We are also objecting to his assertion that if a kid is low-functioning, it is a result of parenting. That is a horrible statement, imho, and takes us all the way back to the days of the refrigerator mother. Shame on any parent of a kid on the spectrum who would blame the parents. And even bigger shame on someone who would openly state it in a forum full of parents, many of whom have kids with significant impairment. It's hurtful and unnecessary.

Which brings me to the point that I, personally, object to the hubris in his posts. It rubs me the wrong way, and he continues to do it, even after it was pointed out to him. I don't know if that is a result of his autism (it is possible that he really doesn't see the effect of his communication or understand why it seems condescending and arrogant), or because he really is arrogant (because some people on the spectrum are; being on the spectrum does not exempt you from being human). I know my communication can be seen as arrogant at times. When I am not paying close attention, that is just how it comes out, in person and in writing, but it is not what I intend (usually ) so when it is brought to my attention, I try to reexplain what I meant, or if I can't, at least explain that arrogance wasn't my intention.

We did not miss the point. many of us are autistic/autistic-ish as well, by the way.

The point is that it would serve the OP well to work harder to tone down the hubris, and tone it down on flogging his book all the time. Even in his response he mentioned it, more than once, as well as where it is available, with the added step of referring people to that page for his "free preview" as part of that response. That is excessive.

People are trying to communicate with him and tell him how that comes off, and instead of backing off he doubles-down.

Also, This^^^^^^

Kids on the spectrum are very different from one another and what works for one (or two) does not mean it will work for even a majority of kids. I also suspect this is a Theory of Mind issue getting in the way of the OP truly understanding this.

I'm playing first. Then, I'll go back and read your solutions.


CASE #1: For a few days, my son refused to sit on high chair for dinner. He threw tantrum, fell on the floor and kicked in the air. My wife couldn't get him to the high chair. I tried, and I was not successful either. My son was non-verbal back then.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO, IF YOU THINK THE CHILD NEEDS TO CHANGE?

I would probably leave him on the floor and eat dinner.

I actually don't "believe" in high chairs. I prefer a small table and chair the child can get into independently. If he got really loud, I'd escort him to a previously agreed upon calm down area.

CASE #2: My son refused to watch new video clips I made for him. He also refused to read simple sentences.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO, IF YOU THINK THE CHILD NEEDS TO CHANGE?

That's actually something I could see myself doing with future children. I would first ask myself, "why is he refusing?" My next steps would be influenced by the answer to that question, but I would likely try to "woo" him with it, not force. If I couldn't, I would stop for awhile and try again at a later date (maybe a few weeks). I might so try to make the videos/sentences about what he's interested in.


CASE #3: My son played with a vacuum cleaner 10 hours a day. If we put the vacuum cleaner back into the closet, he would throw a tantrum, fall on the floor, kick in the air.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO, IF YOU THINK THE CHILD NEEDS TO CHANGE?

When the tantrum happens, I'd let it happen. Then, the next day, I would just leave the vacuum cleaner out. Who cares? Hey! If make those videos and sentences about vacuum cleaners!

CASE #4: My son stimmed with elevators. He would watch elevator videos on YouTube all the time.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO, IF YOU THINK THE CHILD NEEDS TO CHANGE?

Cool. I'd found an interest.

CASE #5: Just a few days ago, my son refused to take a bath, he cried and pretended to slam the door.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO, IF YOU THINK THE CHILD NEEDS TO CHANGE?

Depends on the age of the child here and the strength of refusal. I'd want to try: leave him in the bathroom until he calms down, then resume the bath, talk about elevators and vacuums in the bathtub, watch elevator videos in the bath.

CASE #6: My daughter did not talk.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO, IF YOU THINK THE CHILD NEEDS TO CHANGE?

Totally depends. I'd think of: find other ways to communicate, observe her, teach her to read, communicate with her anyway, still treat her as intelligent.

CASE #7: My daughter had poor eye contact, did not socialize.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO, IF YOU THINK THE CHILD NEEDS TO CHANGE?

Ignore the eye contact completely.

Find other people who like vacuums and elevators.

Just because your wife made you write a book, does not mean you have to continually mention it; or did she make that a requirement, too?

Seriously, don't you think mentioning it once or twice on this board and having it in your signature would be sufficient? You don't have to mention it constantly.

I cannot resist...

I have a published book. This is the first, and last, time I shall mention it on this forum.

For me, it is not just that he has a book (and a website) that he mentions on the forum. Frequently. It's the...manner in which the methods that are the subject of the book and website are portrayed that I object to. They aren't being posited as "helpful suggestions" but rather being sold as THE solution to everyone's problems, while summarily ignoring the comments of others who question whether or not they can be applied to everyone in all cases. And then the shaming of parents who do not think/act as he does. He has repeatedly referred to people with greater impairment as being "underdeveloped," which implies that if only the parents were more focused on "developing" kids as per his recommendations, they would be fully developed and "high functioning." I just can't get past how presumptuous that is.

Then there is the repeated reminder that he is a "scientist," which I see as an appeal to us "non-scientist" types to remember that, as a scientist, he must be smarter than we are. Which I find to be an odd juxtaposition against the fact that he is taking his sample size of 2 and generalizing to an entire population.

I agree. It is insulting. I don't know that he understands fully because of ToM, but it is insulting.

I don't even see how his degree in an unrelated field would make him any more qualified than if he just said he was a dad on the spectrum, with kids on the spectrum.

And you are right, he is not applying proper scientific methodology, regardless.

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is just being an ass or if it's their ASD that is making them come off that way.

I've seen a number of people start as condescending and terribly pushy about how they know it all (for whatever reason) really become more and more sensitive and responsive that others suffer or have concerns, too, different from theirs, yet understandable and relatable to them.

And then there are those who come on WrongPlanet to enlighten the rest of us ignoramuses.

Time will tell which the OP is, he is new and it seems to me many who stick around soften their rigid approaches with time and getting a chance to see how much other posters have to offer. I am so impressed with the wisdom and intelligence and compassion and understanding of many here, it's why I come to WP, it's real. I hope OP will learn from all that we have to offer here. It's worth listening to what we have to say. And takes time for some to develop an understanding how valuable this is, and that it's worth doing. That is what bothers me about the OP, that he hasn't yet learned to convey an attitude of respect to us who read his posts. He may feel it....I hope so, but it's not conveyed. Some members never learn this, some have it sometimes but not consistently, some never seem able to open to another, different point of view. I do think, though, that feeling an interest in and respect for others is different from being able to display this in a way others see and though I'm not sure that's a factor for this OP, it could be for some who read this, and certainly for me it is.

As I read the comments about this OP, who I think has much thicker skin than I do and is unlikely to be hurt, still, I am reminded of all the times I have been punished, yelled at and criticized for what I struggled to do as well as I could but did not accomplish to someone's satisfaction. And a little bit, my heart breaks, at least for me, for all the times I'm trying and told I'm not worth anything until I stop ______ which roughly translates as until I act in a socially skillful manner. And while I don't know that it makes sense to identify so much with this OP, I think his posts seem like unskillful communication whatever else is at play. I hope he moves on if not wanting to grow, but we have a lot to offer OP if you want to try to become more adept in your communication. And people here give our knowledge and experience away freely.

eikonabridge,

I don't doubt your sincerity, your intelligence, your ability to do well by your children, or the value of what you want to convey in your book.

But what is the point of writing a book if people won't want to read it? Or, when they do read it, are put off by tone? Or, if they can get past the tone, are unable to understand the points?

True, we here generally don't have the time to read the actual book (and you can't expect us to without planning to put us on payroll, since reading it would be more for your benefit than ours), but as an author you need to care about the feedback you've gotten. You don't write a book about raising autistic children expecting that people need to understand you, the author, first; you write it so that parents can understand their children. If you fail to communicate your message in a way most parents can relate to, then the book is worthless.

Your unique ways of communicating may be fine in the scientific world, as you point out, and it didn't bother me, but clearly it did bother many other readers on this board, and the answer to that is not to try to change the readers or their perceptions, but to change your approach in writing. You didn't create a work of art that is expected to stand alone regardless of who cares to read and absorb it; you wrote a "help" book. And a "help" book is dead on arrival if it fails to effectively and comfortably communicate. I think the feedback you are getting from members here is important to absorb and understand if you hope to make your book a success. I'd like to see it succeed; I think you have something useful to say; but clearly a lot has been lost in how you present your information. Accept the feedback as valuable and listen to it so that you can improve your book.

That is very true.

In my experience, I have usually noticed that if it is a person's ASD that is making them seem like an a$$, once it is pointed out to them, they try to explain things in a different way, or at least say that they didn't mean to come off like an a$$. Or, their feelings get hurt. Sometimes they even get defensive. But when someone is just an a$$, they just continue on, as if no one pointed it out to them. It is one thing not to understand how you come off. But once someone tells you, it's not the autism that prevents you from seeing it, IMHO. Once it has been pointed out, you don't need to be able to read between the lines. It's right there in black and white.

There are exceptions to that, though. One of my favorite people I have met online is both an aspie who does not always understand how he comes off, and an a$$. He is very non-apologetic about being an a$$, and fully recognizes that he comes off as an a$$. Underneath it all, though, I think it is a compensatory measure. Since he cannot always figure out what will be perceived as "a$$-ish" I think he has just chosen to embrace being "a$$-ish," but when push came to shove, he showed himself to be a good friend and was supportive during a difficult time.

If I were to hazard a guess, I think at heart, the OP is not an ass. His references to being a "scientist," which read to me as insecurity, and the fact that he points to his NT wife as if to indicate that the things he has said are OK because she says so, lead me to believe he is not as pompous as he comes off. And I do think that he truly believes he has found something that has helped his kids. And I think he believes that other people might be helped by his approach.

But I am a professional communicator by training (graduate degree and all ) and DW is right. Unless he can understand how his communication choices affect his audience, his message will never reach them, because they will not get through the condescension and judgment, which, eikonabridge, is how you come across. When you communicate on a professional level, it is your responsibility to communicate in a way that is palatable to your audience. You need to know your audience, and you need to adjust your communication strategy to meet their needs. Unless you don't care if people will hear you. If that is true, then--by all means--communicate in any way you please. Then writing a book is not about helping parents or helping kids on the spectrum. It is about you. When you said earlier that you are not here for parents, you are here for the kids, you did not take into consideration that the way you help the kids is through the parents. So, you need to care about how you come off to the parents.

I suggest you also take into consideration that there is a large number of NT parents of autie/aspie kids out there who are very sensitive to adults on the spectrum "telling them how it is" as if they do not know their own children. I have had more than one adult on the spectrum tell me outright that I can't possibly know how to parent my kid because I am not on the spectrum. That they know better than I do. That's ridiculous. I have found the perspective of people on the spectrum to be invaluable to my parenting, but nobody knows my kids like I do. So, if you are going to try to reach me, or others like me, your best bet is to take it from the perspective of "in my experience, these things have worked. I want to explain to you why I think they have worked with my kids in the hopes that they will work for you and your kids, too. Of course, everyone is different, so if they don't work it is important not to feel discouraged, but to just keep looking until you find something that does work."

In terms of communication, I think persuasive speech is one of the hardest things for someone on the spectrum. I had this issue as a younger person,(and maybe still do) and my son has this issue to a much greater degree. The tendency is to do a brain dump of what the writer/speaker thinks is important, instead of what is desired or expected by the reader/listener.

If the thing in question amounts to being a special interest, that tendency is compounded. I am finding it to be a difficult thing to explain, because even when I tell my son what the objective is, it is hard to get agreement from him on that objective,much less to get him to practice what i am trying to teach.

If anyone watches the Big Bang Theory, it is like that episode when Sheldon finds out the students at his lecture thought he was a terrible teacher. He talks to Amy about it, and she tells him it is his job to entertain and engage the students, while Sheldon insists it is their job to learn because he is the one with "something interesting to say." I think this is a really good example of what is going on here.

To his credit, Sheldon then goes about trying to learn acting techniques from Penny, to improve his teaching.

I will be very happy if my son gets to this point, and I think that maybe it is a thing the OP might want to think about as well.