Lying and aggression from 15 yr old - is this the Aspergers?
14 Feb 2019, 7:46 am
Diagnosed a few months ago....
When he does something wrong, we try to calmly discuss things and give him a chance to explain. But its getting worse and worse.
Last night we found Coke all over the wall in the room where his PC is. We've got past experience with this sort of thing - hes lost his temper while playing computer games and broken things. Also, hes got a habit of something breaking (even if its an accident) and then just leaving it and not bothering to tell anyone.
Anyway, so we're 99.99% sure hes done this. So wife has a calm word with him and asked him whats going on here. In about 3 seconds literally hes gone from 0 to 100. Hes up in his mothers face (2nd time in a week now), being really aggressive and swears blind that no-one ever believes him and hes got no idea how the Coke got up the wall.
The things worrying us right now are:-
1) His aggression. He seems to think if he disagrees with someone he can get up in their face and escalate things. Let alone the fact that this is his mother we're talking about here.
2) He seems to think that hes not wrong. I've literally heard "I didn't do it and you always accuse me of lying" about 50 times. EVERY SINGLE TIME so far hes been found out. One time he is going to be telling the truth I know but still his average isn't good.
What do we do?
We've removed his PC privileges AGAIN. Mainly due to the unacceptable aggressive behaviour. In all honesty, if he'd admitted he'd done it straight away he would have been give a task to clean the wall, and a warning about his behaviour.
I honestly don't know how hes going to cope in the real world as an adult.
Last edited by paulfoel on 14 Feb 2019, 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
14 Feb 2019, 8:09 am
Discipline. Discipline. Discipline. Taking away PC privileges is a good, non-violent form of punishment, but make sure you stick to it consistently and lay down ground rules about how the punishment is applied. If you fail to change his behaviour this way, then increase the length of time for which is computer is taken away from him. Make sure your wife is also enforcing the punishment while you're away at work, and that he's not accessing the internet or video games by any other means (his phone or Xbox or whatever).
This is the advice I'd give you, based on my parents' mostly unsuccessful attempts to discipline me in a similar way as a teenager.
14 Feb 2019, 8:16 am
This is the advice I'd give you, based on my parents' mostly unsuccessful attempts to discipline me in a similar way as a teenager.
Yes we're trying. He gets a "ban"pretty much every week at the moment....
Trouble is its not working. He just sees it as "not fair and my awful parents are picking on me". He just does not see consequences.
Many, many times hes been down for a slight admonishment and hes escalated it and caused us to ban him. We've even warned him to discontinue or he will get a ban and hes still gone for it.
I remember a few months ago, he'd made a mess somewhere. I warned him to sort it because his mother was not happy. He didn't. She was going out in 10 mins and had a word with him. Instead of putting up with it for 10 mins he kicked off again as he always does, and got himself a ban! I just don't understand it.
14 Feb 2019, 8:31 am
This is the advice I'd give you, based on my parents' mostly unsuccessful attempts to discipline me in a similar way as a teenager.
Yes we're trying. He gets a "ban"pretty much every week at the moment....
Trouble is its not working. He just sees it as "not fair and my awful parents are picking on me". He just does not see consequences.
Many, many times hes been down for a slight admonishment and hes escalated it and caused us to ban him. We've even warned him to discontinue or he will get a ban and hes still gone for it.
I remember a few months ago, he'd made a mess somewhere. I warned him to sort it because his mother was not happy. He didn't. She was going out in 10 mins and had a word with him. Instead of putting up with it for 10 mins he kicked off again as he always does, and got himself a ban! I just don't understand it.
Well, removing PC access is only one technique - best not to rely on it alone, but the key is to make sure that you and your wife are confident about possessing the moral high ground; if he thinks he can guilt trip you, or that by playing on your sympathy, he can help himself out, he'll do it. Don't ever underestimate the child's ability to manipulate, even those with Asperger's - heck, even babies use crying to manipulate their parents.
Positive reinforcement is useful too, but don't let him get the impression from it that he is "owed" rewards for routine good behaviour.
14 Feb 2019, 8:32 am
Does he have anyone he is comfortable with?
For me, it looks a lot like anxiety, dissociating and meltdowns.
Dissociating may be a strategy to survive, you get away from your emotions and even your body. This is how I survived school and my numerous family. But it can go too far - and then your memory and self-identity get seriously messed up. Believe me, I've been there, it took two years of therapy to get where I am now.
Meltdowns are fight-or-flight reactions, we talked about it in your previous thread. It's funny, I have two guys in my family who become agressive when melt down and it seems the whole family couldn't find out a simple thing about it - this is not the moment to do any discussions. The melt down person is overwhelmed by emotions, their input/output is distupted, any confrontation will lead to escallation. I just leave the room. We can talk when you calm down. And when I calm down.
But it all comes from enormous anxiety. So, is there anyone who could help him with this? Someone he could be frank about himself with? No, you are his parents, you have power over him, you won't do. Maybe invite him to this forum?
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
14 Feb 2019, 8:34 am
This is the advice I'd give you, based on my parents' mostly unsuccessful attempts to discipline me in a similar way as a teenager.
Yes we're trying. He gets a "ban"pretty much every week at the moment....
Trouble is its not working. He just sees it as "not fair and my awful parents are picking on me". He just does not see consequences.
Many, many times hes been down for a slight admonishment and hes escalated it and caused us to ban him. We've even warned him to discontinue or he will get a ban and hes still gone for it.
I remember a few months ago, he'd made a mess somewhere. I warned him to sort it because his mother was not happy. He didn't. She was going out in 10 mins and had a word with him. Instead of putting up with it for 10 mins he kicked off again as he always does, and got himself a ban! I just don't understand it.
You're punishing him for meltdowns, something he doesn't have power to stop. So it doesn't work.
Even Prometheus admits, his parents' attempts were mostly unsuccessful.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
Last edited by magz on 14 Feb 2019, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
14 Feb 2019, 8:37 am
This is the advice I'd give you, based on my parents' mostly unsuccessful attempts to discipline me in a similar way as a teenager.
Yes we're trying. He gets a "ban"pretty much every week at the moment....
Trouble is its not working. He just sees it as "not fair and my awful parents are picking on me". He just does not see consequences.
Many, many times hes been down for a slight admonishment and hes escalated it and caused us to ban him. We've even warned him to discontinue or he will get a ban and hes still gone for it.
I remember a few months ago, he'd made a mess somewhere. I warned him to sort it because his mother was not happy. He didn't. She was going out in 10 mins and had a word with him. Instead of putting up with it for 10 mins he kicked off again as he always does, and got himself a ban! I just don't understand it.
You're punishing him for meltdowns, something he doesn't have power to stop. So it doesn't work.
The idea that his behaviour constitutes "meltdowns" is just supposition on your part, a much more straightforward explanation would be simple, wilful misbehaviour of the sort I myself (wilfully) engaged in at that age - or are Asperger's children incapable of that, now?
14 Feb 2019, 9:10 am
For me, it looks a lot like anxiety, dissociating and meltdowns.
Dissociating may be a strategy to survive, you get away from your emotions and even your body. This is how I survived school and my numerous family. But it can go too far - and then your memory and self-identity get seriously messed up. Believe me, I've been there, it took two years of therapy to get where I am now.
Meltdowns are fight-or-flight reactions, we talked about it in your previous thread. It's funny, I have two guys in my family who become agressive when melt down and it seems the whole family couldn't find out a simple thing about it - this is not the moment to do any discussions. The melt down person is overwhelmed by emotions, their input/output is distupted, any confrontation will lead to escallation. I just leave the room. We can talk when you calm down. And when I calm down.
But it all comes from enormous anxiety. So, is there anyone who could help him with this? Someone he could be frank about himself with? No, you are his parents, you have power over him, you won't do. Maybe invite him to this forum?
Magz- I think you're probably spot here to be honest.
Tried and encouraged him to speak to people online his own age or similar (there appear to be quite a few forums) but hes not interested at all.
14 Feb 2019, 9:14 am
This is the advice I'd give you, based on my parents' mostly unsuccessful attempts to discipline me in a similar way as a teenager.
Yes we're trying. He gets a "ban"pretty much every week at the moment....
Trouble is its not working. He just sees it as "not fair and my awful parents are picking on me". He just does not see consequences.
Many, many times hes been down for a slight admonishment and hes escalated it and caused us to ban him. We've even warned him to discontinue or he will get a ban and hes still gone for it.
I remember a few months ago, he'd made a mess somewhere. I warned him to sort it because his mother was not happy. He didn't. She was going out in 10 mins and had a word with him. Instead of putting up with it for 10 mins he kicked off again as he always does, and got himself a ban! I just don't understand it.
You're punishing him for meltdowns, something he doesn't have power to stop. So it doesn't work.
The idea that his behaviour constitutes "meltdowns" is just supposition on your part, a much more straightforward explanation would be simple, wilful misbehaviour of the sort I myself (wilfully) engaged in at that age - or are Asperger's children incapable of that, now?
Well I guess thats the million dollar question we just can't determine. Is it teenager bad behaviour or is it an Aspergers-related problem?
14 Feb 2019, 9:20 am
This is the advice I'd give you, based on my parents' mostly unsuccessful attempts to discipline me in a similar way as a teenager.
Yes we're trying. He gets a "ban"pretty much every week at the moment....
Trouble is its not working. He just sees it as "not fair and my awful parents are picking on me". He just does not see consequences.
Many, many times hes been down for a slight admonishment and hes escalated it and caused us to ban him. We've even warned him to discontinue or he will get a ban and hes still gone for it.
I remember a few months ago, he'd made a mess somewhere. I warned him to sort it because his mother was not happy. He didn't. She was going out in 10 mins and had a word with him. Instead of putting up with it for 10 mins he kicked off again as he always does, and got himself a ban! I just don't understand it.
You're punishing him for meltdowns, something he doesn't have power to stop. So it doesn't work.
Even Prometheus admits, his parents' attempts were mostly unsuccessful.
I appreciate that which is why I seek advice. We've found there are only so many things we can do to try and prevent meltdowns. BUT they still happen and they're getting worse.
Hes getting increasingly aggressive and has been violent in the past. With me in the past (Im a big lad and can deal with him) and not that severe (hes thrown things at me, taken a swing at me).
BUT hes now taller than his mother. Hes got a 5 year old sister who he loses his temper with at times. I can just see in his eyes that one day he is going to launch himself at someone. Obviously, that can't happen.
14 Feb 2019, 9:58 am
Yeah, I see. As I mentioned before, I've dealt with adult men (obviously bigger and stronger than me) melting down... the thing is, you have to survive the first wave of emotion in silence so they come to their minds themselves. Sometimes they need a firm hug. Once I needed to firmly say - get out of this room, now! - because there was some violence to another person involved.
There is one sort of discipline that seems to work, at least with my children: very clear rules. And not many of them. Right now, we have just two: before any cartoons or video games are on, the homework must be done and their room has to be acceptably tidy (not perfectly tidy, I'm not perfectly tidy myself, it would be unfair). As new issues come, we update the rules and make sure everyone understands them.
So, make it clear that for hitting people he gets banned but for hittings things he has only to clean the mess - I'm not sure if it would work but I would try something like this first.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
14 Feb 2019, 10:07 am
I know some won't believe in this: but why not establish some sort of reward system.
No meltdowns for a week: a dinner out, for example.
I have already mentioned the possibility of positive reinforcement. A dinner out (in a restaurant) might be a little expensive - and not even necessarily desirable - for an autistic child of that age, but a takeaway as positive reinforcement would have worked a charm for me at that age.
14 Feb 2019, 10:24 am
I think your ideas are good.
What do you think of adding an option: a meltdown does not count (the treat is still available) if you didn't harm any living creature AND you cleaned all the mess you did?
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
14 Feb 2019, 10:56 am
When he does something wrong, we try to calmly discuss things and give him a chance to explain. But its getting worse and worse.
Last night we found Coke all over the wall in the room where his PC is. We've got past experience with this sort of thing - hes lost his temper while playing computer games and broken things. Also, hes got a habit of something breaking (even if its an accident) and then just leaving it and not bothering to tell anyone.
Anyway, so we're 99.99% sure hes done this. So wife has a calm word with him and asked him whats going on here. In about 3 seconds literally hes gone from 0 to 100. Hes up in his mothers face (2nd time in a week now), being really aggressive and swears blind that no-one ever believes him and hes got no idea how the Coke got up the wall.
The things worrying us right now are:-
1) His aggression. He seems to think if he disagrees with someone he can get up in their face and escalate things. Let alone the fact that this is his mother we're talking about here.
2) He seems to think that hes not wrong. I've literally heard "I didn't do it and you always accuse me of lying" about 50 times. EVERY SINGLE TIME so far hes been found out. One time he is going to be telling the truth I know but still his average isn't good.
What do we do?
We've removed his PC privileges AGAIN. Mainly due to the unacceptable aggressive behaviour. In all honesty, if he'd admitted he'd done it straight away he would have been give a task to clean the wall, and a warning about his behaviour.
I honestly don't know how hes going to cope in the real world as an adult.
Agression often comes from frustration. If he doesn't connect the punishment he's getting with his behavior, he'll see it as arbitrary.
Asking him why he's just done something when he's still feeling angry is also challenging. He may not know. From my own experience, when i'm overwhelmed by emotions and sensory issues. (I won't use the term meltdown here) because I can't think clearly let alone come up with an articulate response.
If what you are doing isn't working...stop doing it. Try something else. For example with the spilled coke- instead of asking or accusing try saying I see there is some coke on the wall would you wipe that up please? (you don't have to ask if he did it, or not believe him)
or with the yelling thing. It sounds like he's trying to win the argument before you can start it. Which probably also stems from what he feels as arbitrary random punishments and persecution.
You might find it helps to ease up on the stick and give him more carrot. You don't have to argue or debate with him. Just use simple clear language about what you want from him "stop, yelling I can't understand you when you yell, so I don'y know what you want/need from me" or "that spill needs to be cleaned up, the cleaning supplies are in the kitchen."
14 Feb 2019, 11:24 am
What do you think of adding an option: a meltdown does not count (the treat is still available) if you didn't harm any living creature AND you cleaned all the mess you did?
Well that was the plan last night. A quiet word (and it was a quiet word) to ask what had happened and to please clean it up.
Then he escalated it within seconds...
