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Texasmoneyman300
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26 Mar 2024, 6:19 pm

My dad informed me that he will kick me out and provide another place to live because I say things on facebook like Jesus turned the water into wine and that the Pharisees thought Christ was a drunk and other pro-alcohol things. He also threatens to kick me out because I post my Libertarian beliefs.My dad wants a fresh start at another church and thats a big reason why he is coming down on me right now.He thinks I possibly ruined his chance at being in charge at our current church.

I just dont know why they cant accept me saying Jesus turned the water into wine. They are offering to get apartment for me to live but it will come out of my inheritance.I know their house their rules and I will obey their rules if I have to.However I dont know why I have to get kicked out over a difference in opinion on scriptures.I just hate my life.I have nowhere else to go because I am unemployable and I will never be able to get a good job most likely that will provide for my needs sufficiently. I would have left a long time ago if I could make a living on my own.I am sorry....I know yall cant really do much to help me but I just needed to vent because I dont want to be homeless or semi-homeless.



Last edited by Texasmoneyman300 on 26 Mar 2024, 8:17 pm, edited 5 times in total.

DanielW
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26 Mar 2024, 6:26 pm

it seems you can either continue as you have been and get kicked out, or you can abide with house rules. All you have to do is choose.



Texasmoneyman300
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26 Mar 2024, 6:30 pm

DanielW wrote:
it seems you can either continue as you have been and get kicked out, or you can abide with house rules. All you have to do is choose.

Okay.



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26 Mar 2024, 9:46 pm

He's unhappy you noticed the bible's explanation of Jesus' life is at odds with his understanding of Jesus' life? :scratch:


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Texasmoneyman300
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26 Mar 2024, 9:54 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
He's unhappy you noticed the bible's explanation of Jesus' life is at odds with his understanding of Jesus' life? :scratch:

Thats essentially it.However he says he does it so he can respect and honor his parents and the church.I guess I will have to wait to talk about Jesus drinking on facebook until I move out from their house.He agrees with me that Jesus turned the water into wine....He just wont allow me to say the biblical truth even though he agrees with me for fear upon bringing shame and reproach on the church of Christ.He says he does not want me to ruin the family name in the church by pointing out Jesus consumed alcohol.



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26 Mar 2024, 10:02 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
He thinks I possibly ruined his chance at being in charge at our current church.

The rhetoric you spread will make believers unhappy and thereby undermine your father's power, which is key. I guess your father didn't really believe in a certain statement, but just chose the one that would gain the most power. just like trump

I'm sorry if I offended you


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funeralxempire
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26 Mar 2024, 10:16 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
He's unhappy you noticed the bible's explanation of Jesus' life is at odds with his understanding of Jesus' life? :scratch:

Thats essentially it.However he says he does it so he can respect and honor his parents and the church.I guess I will have to wait to talk about Jesus drinking on facebook until I move out from their house.He agrees with me that Jesus turned the water into wine....He just wont allow me to say the biblical truth even though he agrees with me for fear upon bringing shame and reproach on the church of Christ.He says he does not want me to ruin the family name in the church by pointing out Jesus consumed alcohol.


I think there's a few things to consider here.

He's willing to prioritize his desire for status over a truth that both you and him recognize, because admitting the Emperor wears no clothes will offend the church you're both a part of.

It seems that leaves you in a position where you can also tow the line and deny what the bible clearly says, or you can be forthright, but risk harming both the relationship and the support it provides you.

If he's looking for a fresh start at another church it might be wise for him to pick one that won't force him to pretend the bible doesn't say what it clearly says.

If he chooses a church that doesn't hold the same doctrinal positions on alcohol he won't feel stuck between what the bible clearly says and what his church demands he agree with. Choosing another church isn't dishonouring anyone if they've been mislead by dishonest people, which seems to be what has occurred.

If anything, him cleaving himself to a dishonest church just passes the buck to you. He needs to be brave enough to stand for truth, but if he isn't, he should at least not take it out on you when you're objectively correct. If he feels rejecting a dishonest church would dishonour his parents, all that amounts to is making you bear the burden of standing up for truth instead of him, even though he knows you're correct and the church he's cloven himself to is not.

Within your current church, speaking the truth will ruin not just your reputation, but your entire family's. If that's not a giant red flag I don't know what is.

That said, you're not wrong to prioritize keeping a roof over your head vs. having to navigate Texas' social supports even if that decision is entirely due to power dynamics.

If I was a religious fundamentalist I might chide you for not standing up for what's correct according to your holy book, but martyring yourself over what's ultimately a pretty trivial point in the grand scheme of things seems like a waste. You know you're correct, your dad knows you're correct, if lying about what the bible says is required to be part of the club and being part of the club is important, you might have to lie.

But then again, is it possible that more people there know the truth and also feel compelled to lie about what the bible says to remain part of the club? A club that's united by everyone lying to each other doesn't seem like a very healthy environment to participate in.


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Texasmoneyman300
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26 Mar 2024, 10:17 pm

belijojo wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
He thinks I possibly ruined his chance at being in charge at our current church.

The rhetoric you spread will make believers unhappy and thereby undermine your father's power, which is key. I guess your father didn't really believe in a certain statement, but just chose the one that would gain the most power. just like trump

I'm sorry if I offended you

Dont worry.Its okay.I am fine.



Texasmoneyman300
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26 Mar 2024, 10:29 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
He's unhappy you noticed the bible's explanation of Jesus' life is at odds with his understanding of Jesus' life? :scratch:

Thats essentially it.However he says he does it so he can respect and honor his parents and the church.I guess I will have to wait to talk about Jesus drinking on facebook until I move out from their house.He agrees with me that Jesus turned the water into wine....He just wont allow me to say the biblical truth even though he agrees with me for fear upon bringing shame and reproach on the church of Christ.He says he does not want me to ruin the family name in the church by pointing out Jesus consumed alcohol.


I think there's a few things to consider here.

He's willing to prioritize his desire for status over a truth that both you and him recognize, because admitting the Emperor wears no clothes will offend the church you're both a part of.

It seems that leaves you in a position where you can also tow the line and deny what the bible clearly says, or you can be forthright, but risk harming both the relationship and the support it provides you.

If he's looking for a fresh start at another church it might be wise for him to pick one that won't force him to pretend the bible doesn't say what it clearly says.

If he chooses a church that doesn't hold the same doctrinal positions on alcohol he won't feel stuck between what the bible clearly says and what his church demands he agree with. Choosing another church isn't dishonouring anyone if they've been mislead by dishonest people, which seems to be what has occurred.

If anything, him cleaving himself to a dishonest church just passes the buck to you. He needs to be brave enough to stand for truth, but if he isn't, he should at least not take it out on you when you're objectively correct. If he feels rejecting a dishonest church would dishonour his parents, all that amounts to is making you bear the burden of standing up for truth instead of him, even though he knows you're correct and the church he's cloven himself to is not.

Within your current church, speaking the truth will ruin not just your reputation, but your entire family's. If that's not a giant red flag I don't know what is.

That said, you're not wrong to prioritize keeping a roof over your head vs. having to navigate Texas' social supports even if that decision is entirely due to power dynamics.

If I was a religious fundamentalist I might chide you for not standing up for what's correct according to your holy book, but martyring yourself over what's ultimately a pretty trivial point in the grand scheme of things seems like a waste. You know you're correct, your dad knows you're correct, if lying about what the bible says is required to be part of the club and being part of the club is important, you might have to lie.

But then again, is it possible that more people there know the truth and also feel compelled to lie about what the bible says to remain part of the club? A club that's united by everyone lying to each other doesn't seem like a very healthy environment to participate in.

Some people in the church know that alcohol was in the Bible. I pointed out to the preacher that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach or Jesus drank or turned the water into wine and he was like just because Paul told Timothy that doesnt mean we should drink or that just because Jesus did that doesnt mean we should drink.

I plan on starting a church of Christ someday that teaches the truth about alcohol but I dont want to get banished and shunned over this so I guess I will just bide my time until then.However there's a lot of willful ignorance and gaslighting about booze.One time a elder even did a whole sunday morning sermon over how he believed all the alcohol in the Bible was Welch's Grape Juice.



funeralxempire
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27 Mar 2024, 12:26 am

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I plan on starting a church of Christ someday that teaches the truth about alcohol but I dont want to get banished and shunned over this so I guess I will just bide my time until then.However there's a lot of willful ignorance and gaslighting about booze.One time a elder even did a whole sunday morning sermon over how he believed all the alcohol in the Bible was Welch's Grape Juice.


I would anticipate that being shunned and banished is the inevitable outcome of starting a religious schism.

Joining a more agreeable church at least means finding a new community, whereas starting an offshoot of what's already quite a small church will mostly just cause a lot of disruption and suffering for the people who experience the split, especially if shunning and banishment is the typical means of dealing with such disagreements for your church.

Part of the reason churches like CoC have the views they do towards alcohol is because of how widespread alcoholism was when they emerged. The Temperance Movement and the Restoration Movement were contemporary and linked.

Even though it seems like an issue where one could apply the notion of Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent, it doesn't seem likely that CoC will just drop that part of their doctrine.


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Texasmoneyman300
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27 Mar 2024, 1:42 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I plan on starting a church of Christ someday that teaches the truth about alcohol but I dont want to get banished and shunned over this so I guess I will just bide my time until then.However there's a lot of willful ignorance and gaslighting about booze.One time a elder even did a whole sunday morning sermon over how he believed all the alcohol in the Bible was Welch's Grape Juice.


I would anticipate that being shunned and banished is the inevitable outcome of starting a religious schism.

Joining a more agreeable church at least means finding a new community, whereas starting an offshoot of what's already quite a small church will mostly just cause a lot of disruption and suffering for the people who experience the split, especially if shunning and banishment is the typical means of dealing with such disagreements for your church.

Part of the reason churches like CoC have the views they do towards alcohol is because of how widespread alcoholism was when they emerged. The Temperance Movement and the Restoration Movement were contemporary and linked.

Even though it seems like an issue where one could apply the notion of Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent, it doesn't seem likely that CoC will just drop that part of their doctrine.

Good points.There are no more agreeable churches I could ever join.I just think the church of Christ should not make a tradition to be as binding as scripture.Alcohol is not my only motivation for wanting to start my own movement in the churches of Christ.

I figure after my parents generation is gone the church will be more friendly to booze.My dad said he would not kick me out as long as I wait to talk publically about alcohol until I am no longer living with them.Every church of Christ that I know of is against alcohol but I get the impression that the younger generations are less against alcohol than their parents and grandparents.The church of Christ does not really have a set of official doctrine because each congregration is autonomous.

I have other issues I disagree with the mainline churches of Christ on.I plan on applying for tax exemption for my church after I move cities.One of the big reasons why I want to be a pro-alcohol church is so more people can feel more comfortable in a church of Christ and visit and become members even if they are moderate drinkers and not feel judged in that way like in the past.



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27 Mar 2024, 8:37 am

I want to start by saying your father is a heretic. The Bible says that Jesus turned water into wine. If your father says otherwise than your father is saying the Bible is wrong.

If your father says that Jesus didn't turn water into wine while believing that Jesus did turn water into wine then he is worse than a heretic. He is a traitor to his own beliefs.

If your father says that all mentions of wine in the Bible are non-alcoholic grape juice, then he should know that without refrigeration you cannot store grape juice for any length of time without refrigeration. So if people in Bible times were drinking grape juice they must have had access to electricity and refrigerators.

Image

DanielW wrote:
it seems you can either continue as you have been and get kicked out, or you can abide with house rules. All you have to do is choose.
There is no choice. The OP cannot lie about his beliefs to make a tyrant happy.
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
He says he does not want me to ruin the family name in the church by pointing out Jesus consumed alcohol.
Cowering before a tyrant church will not bring honour to the family name. The church won't respect your family for doing this. The master does not respect the slave and the tyrant does not respect the coward.
belijojo wrote:
The rhetoric you spread will make believers unhappy and thereby undermine your father's power, which is key.
The OP must undermine his father's power at every opportunity until his father's words match his father's beliefs. If his father says one thing while believing another than he doesn't desevere any power. He deserves only sabotage.
funeralxempire wrote:
If I was a religious fundamentalist I might chide you for not standing up for what's correct according to your holy book
We may also chide his father for not standing up to what's correct according to his own beliefs, even if we are not religious fundamentalists.

I understand that his father desires power within that church but he will not find there. So long as he is forced to lie about his own beliefs he will never have any power within that organization and he will never have the respect of the church leaders.

A father who has abandoned his own moral principles also doesn't deserve respect or obedience from his son. Parents can offer moral guidance to their children only as long as they continue to be moral.


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27 Mar 2024, 9:00 am

Considering your church teaches about "quiverful" beliefs, yeah get out of that cult lmao.


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27 Mar 2024, 9:13 am

It's been a while since I went through the new testament, but it clearly says Jesus turned water into wine. It sounds like your dad and his congregation are just being jerks if they will not have a discussion as to why they believe otherwise -- maybe there is a good argument, but this one is new to me.

It's probably best to drop it, for you own well being. But, in the absence of a good counter-argument, they are wrong, and you are right.

Disclaimer: I don't believe in any of this.


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27 Mar 2024, 12:30 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
There is no choice. The OP cannot lie about his beliefs to make a tyrant happy.


The OP can always choose not to post something on social media (which is what is angering his father) Regardless of his personal beliefs or opinions. Especially if doing so puts his living in the home at risk. No one asked him to lie about anything, not even his father.



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27 Mar 2024, 5:11 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
I want to start by saying your father is a heretic. The Bible says that Jesus turned water into wine. If your father says otherwise than your father is saying the Bible is wrong.

If your father says that Jesus didn't turn water into wine while believing that Jesus did turn water into wine then he is worse than a heretic. He is a traitor to his own beliefs.

If your father says that all mentions of wine in the Bible are non-alcoholic grape juice, then he should know that without refrigeration you cannot store grape juice for any length of time without refrigeration. So if people in Bible times were drinking grape juice they must have had access to electricity and refrigerators.

Image

DanielW wrote:
it seems you can either continue as you have been and get kicked out, or you can abide with house rules. All you have to do is choose.
There is no choice. The OP cannot lie about his beliefs to make a tyrant happy.
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
He says he does not want me to ruin the family name in the church by pointing out Jesus consumed alcohol.
Cowering before a tyrant church will not bring honour to the family name. The church won't respect your family for doing this. The master does not respect the slave and the tyrant does not respect the coward.
belijojo wrote:
The rhetoric you spread will make believers unhappy and thereby undermine your father's power, which is key.
The OP must undermine his father's power at every opportunity until his father's words match his father's beliefs. If his father says one thing while believing another than he doesn't desevere any power. He deserves only sabotage.
funeralxempire wrote:
If I was a religious fundamentalist I might chide you for not standing up for what's correct according to your holy book
We may also chide his father for not standing up to what's correct according to his own beliefs, even if we are not religious fundamentalists.

I understand that his father desires power within that church but he will not find there. So long as he is forced to lie about his own beliefs he will never have any power within that organization and he will never have the respect of the church leaders.

A father who has abandoned his own moral principles also doesn't deserve respect or obedience from his son. Parents can offer moral guidance to their children only as long as they continue to be moral.

My dad knows that the wine in the Bible was alcoholic.He basically said if I continue to post pro-alcohol things on facebook like Jesus turned the water into wine I will be kicked out of the house even though he agrees with me.He agrees that the first miracle of Jesus was turning the water into alcoholic wine.He means he will force me to leave the house and he will find another place to live for me not kick me out where I am on skid row homeless but I still would be separated from my family.Sorry for the confusion.



Last edited by Texasmoneyman300 on 27 Mar 2024, 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.