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Do you believe in the human soul?
Yes 46%  46%  [ 39 ]
No 54%  54%  [ 46 ]
Total votes : 85

anna-banana
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02 Dec 2008, 5:26 am

alba wrote:
quanta, the building blocks of the universe, may possess consciousness as well as intelligence...that quanta anywhere may be in communication with quanta anywhere else.


I see you're talking about entangled particles here. I don't see at all how this has anything to do with communication/intelligence/conciousness of any kind though...

you're sounding very New Agey, but I'm afraid you're overinterpreting scientific findings a lot more than the usual New Agist... you're trying to make the facts speak up in favour of your theory, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold at all. if it does for you though, than I'm glad you have your own philosophy (and it's an interesting one indeed) and you're not just a blind follower of others, but personally, I'm not convinced...

sorry :wink:


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Magnus
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02 Dec 2008, 12:06 pm

It's easy to recite "obvious truths" that is in the textbooks and back every opinion with empirical evidence. New Age philosophy gets a bad wrap because it's new. alba, I think you raised a great question, "What happens to the sun when it dies?"

Quote:
"I am sorry to disappoint science fiction fans. But if you jump into a black hole, your mass energy will be returned to our Universe but in a mangled form." -Stephen Hawkings


I still think that to find the soul one has to search within. I'm also becoming more convinced these days that some people simply don't have them, or they are not activated. Some souls are imprisoned by the physical body. How do I know I have a soul? I know myself.


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alba
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02 Dec 2008, 3:18 pm

anna-banana wrote:
alba wrote:
quanta, the building blocks of the universe, may possess consciousness as well as intelligence...that quanta anywhere may be in communication with quanta anywhere else.


I see you're talking about entangled particles here.

no...Connected, not entangled.

Quote:
I don't see at all how this has anything to do with communication/intelligence/conciousness of any kind though...

"your consciousness is undivided from the totality of all consciousness"

Quote:
you're sounding very New Agey

meh...i've been known to talk to rocks and hug trees; i refuse to eat mammals or birds..

Quote:
you're not just a blind follower of others

to a fault
i'm an iconoclast - one who attacks established beliefs or institutions - especially when they are mean, selfish or untrue.



alba
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02 Dec 2008, 3:49 pm

Magnus wrote:
I still think that to find the soul one has to search within.

as well as have an aptitude for overcoming the negative consequences of education and social conditioning. to be in the habit of always thinking for oneself. to have an open, agile, non-lazy mind. to be sensitive, as opposed to disparaging, of paranormal phenomena...

on this issue of soul - my head fights with my heart and so far it's a stalemate. i'm inclined to believe stars have souls as that makes at least some sense but i haven't really convinced myself. it also makes sense either everything has a soul, or nothing does. i can't believe only humans have souls.

our solar system is such a nice little physical unit in the sea of cosmic infinity...i think it probably represents a unit of consciousness on some level, even if our sun doesn't have a soul.

btw i love the Einstein quote in your signature.



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02 Dec 2008, 4:12 pm

alba wrote:
as well as have an aptitude for overcoming the negative consequences of education and social conditioning. to be in the habit of always thinking for oneself. to have an open, agile, non-lazy mind.


Which may well give Aspies an advantage in the search? Social conditioning must be an almost insurmountable obstacle to overcome for NT's. Aspies are halfway there to start with. So which way do we want to go? Back to the herd, or outside of the herd? "In the herd, but not of the herd"?

What can the soul be, if there is one? It certainly cannot 'think' because thoughts show up clearly in MRI scans and ECG machines. The activity of our minds, what we call our thoughts and emotions, can be monitored.

The feelings you have when you see a new born baby, a bomb blast, the pyramids, when you are blatantly insulted, when you're hungry, cold, tired, when you receive a reward for your hard work. All of these are the result of physical brain activity that can be monitored. And none of it happens in a dead brain. Hence whatever a soul may be, it can not experience any of this. So what can a soul experience?

alba wrote:
as it seems that everything is connected up with everything else....and that quanta, the building blocks of the universe, may possess consciousness as well as intelligence...that quanta anywhere may be in communication with quanta anywhere else...that space-time is an illusion....that cause-effect is also an illusion.


Link: Holons?


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merrymadscientist
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02 Dec 2008, 4:25 pm

anna-banana wrote:
so you're saying- we should believe in a made-up concept that we cannot prove, just to protect our fragile minds from inevitable depression...?


I think most people do believe in the concept of the soul for this very reason - it is a survival mechanism which has evolved (a race of people who believe their lives are pointless and temporary would not exist very long under natural selection).

I used to believe consciousness had to be 'something' other that physical - this was before I seriously started thinking about the question rationally, but also because at that stage of my life I wasn't ready to accept the truth because I had such a strong sense of self. I have lost that and am now still in a stage of trying to accept the pointlessness of my life - it is quite a dark place to be, I am not happy, but at least I am not deluded any more, and as I don't want to go back to delusion (although its OK to forget about the reality of the situation for short periods of time), I will have to try and find another way out of it (if I can). I guess it depends if you value truth more or happiness.



ducasse
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02 Dec 2008, 6:27 pm

I don't see why valuing truth & being happy should be mutually exclusive. & because consciousness is only physical it doesn't mean that life is pointless, only that the point of your life isn't prescribed by anyone else - you get to decide what the point is. That having an immaterial soul is the only possible situation where a life could have meaning is only a piece of nonsense made up by religions to scare people into trying to make themselves believe it. I mean, just because you accept consciousness has an entirely physical basis doesn't make consciousness any less bizarre & amazing.

Anyway, I hope you find your way out of the dark place you're in.



Ingestion
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02 Dec 2008, 7:07 pm

I'm slightly christian but through logical thinking I came up with a theory that I think proves that there is an afterlife, feel free to pick holes in it because I want to know if it a strong argument or not.

Basically, we exist now, so there is a chance, however small, even if the odds are 1 in almost infinity, that we exist. When we are concious, we have a sense of time, but when we are not concious, for example when we sleep without dreams, time seems to pass instantaneously. When we are dead, if you believe in a soul, you will believe in an afterlife anyway, if you don't, here is the rest of the theory: When we are dead (without a soul) we will have no conciousness, so time will pass instantaneously in our personal experience. Since there is an eternity for this to happen, there is infinite chances for existence to occur again.

So, probability of existence = 1/infinity, amount of chances for this existence to occur = infinity
infinity x 1/infinity = 1 and 1 in probability means a definite chance of something occuring. Therefore the afterlife occurs.

The problem I can see with this theory is that although it might prove that the afterlife occurs, it does not say it what way it will relate to this life. Although it might be more satisfying to believe that when you die you go to heaven and never die again, or, comparing my theory to the buddhist idea of conciousness, that we will grow in enlightenment, I don't think there will ever be any sound proof of this.

This means that while you may have an afterlife, you may not remember this life in it. The question then is, what value does knowing that you will have infinite lives have if at any point in your conciousness you only know about one of them? And that is a question I can't answer, so in conclusion, in my opinion, yes, we do transcend this life and this body, but we might never be able to tell that we do, so if this is the case, it is just as well we only have one life as that we have infinite.



alba
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02 Dec 2008, 8:35 pm

Ingestion wrote:
I'm slightly christian but through logical thinking I came up with a theory that I think proves that there is an afterlife, feel free to pick holes in it because I want to know if it a strong argument or not.

Basically, we exist now, so there is a chance, however small, even if the odds are 1 in almost infinity, that we exist. When we are concious, we have a sense of time, but when we are not concious, for example when we sleep without dreams, time seems to pass instantaneously. When we are dead, if you believe in a soul, you will believe in an afterlife anyway, if you don't, here is the rest of the theory: When we are dead (without a soul) we will have no conciousness, so time will pass instantaneously in our personal experience. Since there is an eternity for this to happen, there is infinite chances for existence to occur again.

So, probability of existence = 1/infinity, amount of chances for this existence to occur = infinity
infinity x 1/infinity = 1 and 1 in probability means a definite chance of something occuring. Therefore the afterlife occurs.

The problem I can see with this theory is that although it might prove that the afterlife occurs, it does not say it what way it will relate to this life. Although it might be more satisfying to believe that when you die you go to heaven and never die again, or, comparing my theory to the buddhist idea of conciousness, that we will grow in enlightenment, I don't think there will ever be any sound proof of this.

This means that while you may have an afterlife, you may not remember this life in it. The question then is, what value does knowing that you will have infinite lives have if at any point in your conciousness you only know about one of them? And that is a question I can't answer, so in conclusion, in my opinion, yes, we do transcend this life and this body, but we might never be able to tell that we do, so if this is the case, it is just as well we only have one life as that we have infinite.

assuming reincarnation exists, is there anything to actually prevent an individual from learning about his/her previous or future lives? all one's lives could exist in parallel universes sharing information with each other.



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03 Dec 2008, 5:02 am

alba wrote:
haven't decided yet. if soul exists, it isn't what people think it is, just like god isn't what people think it is.


If you haven't decided what these things are, how do you know what they aren't?



Sand
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03 Dec 2008, 5:35 am

Do you just decide things or do you try to find out?



Sand
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03 Dec 2008, 6:31 am

Actually, the soul aside, considering the caliber of analysis displayed in many threads on this site, I'm starting to disbelieve in the human mind.



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03 Dec 2008, 11:52 am

I have one personal theory that is somewhat related to this discussion.

basically..

time, as in the past, present and the future does not exist, it is just the minds way of recording what it encounters in our perceivable dimensions. what we know as past, present and future events all exist within their dimensions, time is still and infinite. and then there's the famous infinite possibilities/reality theory.. in short life is infinite in every sense of the word, its just our perceptions that are limited to the specific dimensions, reality and recorded information (memories, thoughts etc) that we call our lives.

like most of my theories this heavily contradicts most of my other theories/ideas though :P



samtoo
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03 Dec 2008, 12:13 pm

I like the idea of a soul, but I don't find this way of thinking feasable.

So no, I don't believe in the human soul.


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alba
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03 Dec 2008, 1:25 pm

Confused-Fish wrote:
I have one personal theory that is somewhat related to this discussion.

basically..

time, as in the past, present and the future does not exist, it is just the minds way of recording what it encounters in our perceivable dimensions. what we know as past, present and future events all exist within their dimensions, time is still and infinite. and then there's the famous infinite possibilities/reality theory.. in short life is infinite in every sense of the word, its just our perceptions that are limited to the specific dimensions, reality and recorded information (memories, thoughts etc) that we call our lives.

like most of my theories this heavily contradicts most of my other theories/ideas though :P


totally
well done
now to see what we can do with it...



alba
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03 Dec 2008, 5:44 pm

ManErg wrote:

Link: Holons?


thanks for the link