Non-belief

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I believe people believe in whatever seems acceptably believable to the folks around them when they are ready to hear something to believe in. Absurd memes everywhere.

I think that's exactly it - whether its a debate over what's the right blend on the capitalism/socialism continuum, on the more/less government continuum, or on the God(s) or hereafter/No God(s) or hereafter continuum. Part of where you gather your sense of fulcrums is careful observation, part of it is stuff you picked up along the way just by the nature of your own environment or the imbalances it has, atheists and theists are both in that same tug of war with what they can't know but what seems to lock into place perfectly to them in explaining their world.

It's an interesting contrast since in many of the other groups I belong to, there are often threads with titles like "why are all aspies religious" or even "why are all aspies Christian". I have met in person more Atheist aspies than religious ones, which makes sense considering that aspies tend to have far more literal thinking and usually will not be satisfied with an answer of "god just exists so believe in him". I personally grew out of religion, I was a Christian until I was 19, I even remember making posts in forums explaining why god exists, as well as even saying "I hate Atheists", little did I know that once I finally got around to actually reading the bible cover to cover, that I would lose all faith and respect for religions of any kind.

If you look closely at your "instances of truth, beauty and justice" you will find that there is no empirical evidence for their existence either, that they are purely subjective; the product of entirely personal experience, of your beliefs and physical sensations, ( hence the never-ending arguments about what constitutes justice, and beauty, and truth, among many other things ).

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Beauty and justice may have problems but some truths, at least, have pragmatic tests. If it works it is an indication of truth mostly, but not always. When things don't work, it is a pretty good indication of something pretty wrong. Religion has been around for thousands of years and considering the continuity of mayhem, does not seem to be particularly effective.

What "works" and what "doesn't work" depends on one's point of view aswell, ( on one's "location"/position, and beliefs ).

The argument that "continuing mayhem" is because religion doesn't work can be applied equally to science and technology. What is "true"?

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i do not believe anything i do not know.
i can not "know" something i have not seen or experienced...unless i can calculate it.
i do not believe anybody when they try to convince me of things that require any "faith" at all from me.

i do not trust the wits of another persons reasoning unless they provide unarguable proof.
and i can argue for ever about the possible alternatives that may lead to a situation, so nothing is ever rendered inarguable to me (in a theosophical sense that is).

i have a friend who seems intelligent, but he is prone to frivolous attachments to ideas he wants to be true, but can not prove to be true. he is mainly concerned about aliens and the "fact" that they have caused the financial crisis and the swine flu and he thinks we are going toward an armageddon (and "ahhm'm a gettin" tired of it).
he is passionate about trying to get me to believe what he believes in, but he can not provide incontrovertible proof.

he gets angry with me and directs me to watch youtube videos that have respectable people with high "status" who are making wild claims about their appraisals of the matter.

if i say "it is still not PROOF", then he gets angry and says "do you realize who that man IS?!?!? i'm sure he knows a lot more than you do on the topic buddy!! !".
i say "that may be true, but all that he says is his own speculation and it is not absolute PROOF".

my friend is satisfied that it is proof, and we had to part in disagreement.
he is also a believer in "god" as an entity. he follows the same "fill in the blanks with faith" routine with that as well.

i realize i have not the capacity to calculate if god exists, and no one else has either, so why keep asking the question?

i know i can not jump high enough to touch the moon, and i have never tried once to do so.

it is the same for "speculating" about god.

For someone to deny the viability of the greatest advance in human knowledge and technology since primates dropped down from the trees as unworkable is beyond stupidity and madness. It stands alone as some sort of intellectual monument to irrationality that has a peculiar dark poetry all its own.

Which one are you referring to?



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Last edited by ouinon on 09 May 2009, 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Do you know that the earth is round and that it goes round the sun, or that truth, and beauty, and justice exist, ... or don't you believe ( in ) these things?

If you do "know" these things, what exactly do you mean by knowing? Because I don't know these things; I take ( some of ) them on trust because I have been told that these are "so".

I don't "know" them, either because I haven't been up in a space craft and seen the earth from space, or because I can not point to a single instance of truth, beauty, or justice which does not rely on individual belief systems, subjective experience.

I don't know that India exists, for example, ( I have never been there ). Should I not believe in it?

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Of course, when you wake up in the morning your teeth chatter in fear as you put one foot on the floor not being sure it's there and you may be dropping into a bottomless chasm dug by giant moles from Hell while you slept.

Aah! The very concept that there is only one defines you excellently.

I asked which one precisely because I realise there are many, and wondered which one you meant?

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All. The advance is singular. The causes are not.

The floor being there has nothing to do with the world being round.

I know that the floor is there, or at least my body has found it there every morning of my life so far, and my brain has filed that experience, like it files the "world spinning" on a short term basis when I spin round and round for long enough, thus making me feel dizzy when I stop.

India on the other hand I take on trust. I believe that it exists because I have been told that it does. I would find it very difficult to prove to anyone that India existed without actually taking them there.

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BTW, don't worry - we are indeed aiming for a full comeback with that one. Hopefully if we work hard enough we can make reason and logic illegal, re-institute papal authority all over the world to what it was back in 1000 AD we'll then just be able to ram everyone down the pipe - Christian and Muslim - at Harmaghida and with any luck obliterate our entire race with one good war. Our plan for next May isn't working out so well, might take a Palin/Falwell ticket but we have it in the works. Without freedom of expression though I'm imagining we'll have some wondrously and exquisitely dark poetry written by atheists .