USA Bashing

Page 3 of 11 [ 173 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 11 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Sep 2009, 1:28 am

Silvervarg wrote:

And when did Plato lived and what motivation did he have...?

He was in his late twenties or early thirties when his mentor and idol, Socrates, was put to death in 399 b.c.e. His motivation was to elevate and extol the status of philosophers. His major premise in his famous book -The Republic- is that only philosophers are capable or ruling well. Plato rather detested the masses, the workers and the burgoise. He extolled intellectuals.

ruveyn

skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

11 Sep 2009, 1:31 am

Plotinus wrote:

According to plato, the only system worse than democracy is tyranny. Aristocracy is the best.
The usa is somewhere between democracy and tyranny.

Greek philosophy is not the be-all end-all of political philosophy and, in fact, much has happened since then.

I say we'd be better off with the dissolution of the democrat and republican parties; formation of more parties; very strict campaign finance rules; and let democracy ring out in a newer, more decentralized means.

Only problem is that of private industry/media which has enjoyed more freedoms than any of the country's citizens have ever gotten to enjoy and much more voice in governance than the citizens. Media reform would have to be first but no clue how it could/should be done....it's one of those impossible scenarios....probably best solved with a bold cut of the Gordian knot.

_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Sep 2009, 1:36 am

skafather84 wrote:

Plotinus wrote:

According to plato, the only system worse than democracy is tyranny. Aristocracy is the best.
The usa is somewhere between democracy and tyranny.

Greek philosophy is not the be-all end-all of political philosophy and, in fact, much has happened since then.

That is somewhat true, but keep in mind the Greeks were the first to do philosophy (as we understand that turn). They started purging superstition and awe of the gods from the thinking of bright people. The Ionian philosophers (pre-Socratics) laid the basis of what eventually became science. The Greeks also invented that mode of mathematics in which results are derived from few assumptions by logic alone.

All the science we have today, is derived from a mode of thinking invented by the Greek pre-Socratic philosophers.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Socratic_philosophy
for a brief introduction.

ruveyn

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

11 Sep 2009, 1:39 am

Plotinus wrote:

According to plato, the only system worse than democracy is tyranny. Aristocracy is the best.
The usa is somewhere between democracy and tyranny.

The USA is a pretense at a republic with all the vital control in the hands of plutocrats. The forms of a republic remain but there is nobody whose concern is for the country as a whole pushing the right levers and buttons. When the population is vitalized by a responsible educational system there is some hope that the engines of republican government can be empowered to make a working system. At the moment power remains in the hands of the affluent and until that is remedied the system is on a course of self destruction for the temporary benefit of the rich until it collapses.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Sep 2009, 1:45 am

Sand wrote:

The U.S. is really a republic. But so was the Soviet Union (legally speaking) and Communist China. No major power has ever had a totally just government. But that reflects a very human deficiency in governance. Some humans will always plead their own cause, no matter what. Other humans will follow dominant personalities because they cannot be autonomous.

That is the way we are. There will never, ever be good government for very long, given our current biological and psychological state. It would take a genetic mutation leading to reproductive success to transform out kind a species of half-way decent individuals.

I think what rankles you is the notion that we United Stateseans are somehow exceptional people -- special people and better than the common run of humanity. I am not rankled, I simply accept that claim as proof of self delusion. People have been bullsh*ting themselves since God invented dirt.

ruveyn

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

11 Sep 2009, 1:55 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

As a US citizen I am fully cognizant of the country's follies and virtues.

Plotinus
Blue Jay

Joined: 6 Sep 2009
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 82
Location: Sri Lanka

11 Sep 2009, 2:24 am

Ruveyn,

The greeks learned mathematics and philosophy from the egyptians. Plato studied in Egypt too.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Sep 2009, 7:03 am

Plotinus wrote:

Ruveyn,

The greeks learned mathematics and philosophy from the egyptians. Plato studied in Egypt too.

No Egyptian ever proved a theorem. The theorem-proof pattern was invented by Thales. Egyptian geometry was empirical and heuristic. Thales transformed it into a deductive theory. To put a point on it: Thales invented theorems and proofs, well before Plato and Aristotle were born

ruveyn

Plotinus
Blue Jay

Joined: 6 Sep 2009
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 82
Location: Sri Lanka

11 Sep 2009, 7:26 am

the greeks invented nothing. Everything was egyptian: and they have it from atlantis.

Henriksson
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,534
Location: Sweden

11 Sep 2009, 7:27 am

Plotinus wrote:

the greeks invented nothing. Everything was egyptian: and they have it from atlantis.

Er...

I think you might have to read up on history a bit.

_________________
"Purity is for drinking water, not people" - Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Plotinus
Blue Jay

Joined: 6 Sep 2009
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 82
Location: Sri Lanka

11 Sep 2009, 7:40 am

Historians only tell lies. Atlantis, there is the truth.
Where did the azteks say they were from? Aztlan.
Is Atlantis.

Henriksson
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,534
Location: Sweden

11 Sep 2009, 7:46 am

Plotinus wrote:

Historians only tell lies.

No, historians can make a pretty accurate view of how things in the past were based on many sources. You're basically saying that an academical institution is conspirating against the public, and I won't take that very seriously.

Quote:

Atlantis, there is the truth.

Please show your work.

Quote:

Where did the azteks say they were from? Aztlan.
Is Atlantis.

Did the lying historians tell you that? Anyway, I'm unsure what a linguistic coincidence is supposed to prove.

_________________
"Purity is for drinking water, not people" - Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

11 Sep 2009, 8:23 am

Silvervarg wrote:

O for God's sake, they never sak where it was, they asked if they'd support an invasion just because someone told them it was a threat to the US...

So? They were cherry-picking the responses anyways, and in regions where there is widespread unconditional support for Bush.

Quote:

Mayby that's because the human nature, not the system? And how about the upsides with democracy?

If a system relies on human nature to be different than it is, it is useless. And there are theoretical problems with democracy that transcend the difficulties of implementation. Upsides? OK, list them.

Quote:

And how do you propose to bring humanity "up to snuff?" Like communism and anarchism, any political ideology that requires a change in human nature is doomed to failure. You have to work with the people you have, not the people you'd like to have. You can not just change humanity at a whim to better fit your ideal world.

Schools...?

That doesn't tend to work. You can instill people with a given ideology in schools, but you can't make them independent critical thinkers.

Quote:

And dictators has worked reeeeally well in modern days, just look at Stalin/Hitler/(insert whatever name you'd like here). The major problem is that when you have a dictator, you don't get rid of him/her until they die.

Monarchy ≠ dictatorship. And I will note that it was a democratic system which produced Hitler for us. He was massively popular in Germany, even among non-Nazis. Stalin used more political maneuvering to defeat his high-level rivals, but he also was extremely popular among the general public and would almost certainly have won a direct election in the Soviet Union.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

11 Sep 2009, 10:06 am

Orwell wrote:

Silvervarg wrote:

O for God's sake, they never sak where it was, they asked if they'd support an invasion just because someone told them it was a threat to the US...

So? They were cherry-picking the responses anyways, and in regions where there is widespread unconditional support for Bush.

Quote:

Mayby that's because the human nature, not the system? And how about the upsides with democracy?

Quote:

Schools...?

That doesn't tend to work. You can instill people with a given ideology in schools, but you can't make them independent critical thinkers.

Quote:

And you claim that the perceptive capability of all citizens of any country no matter their educational level or cultural standards can never be better than those in Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Sep 2009, 10:09 am

Plotinus wrote:

the greeks invented nothing. Everything was egyptian: and they have it from atlantis.

Have you forgotten to take your meds again?

Atlantis is a myth made popular by Plato. See -Timaeus- and -Critias- by Plato. You should not confuse science fiction with reality.

ruveyn

phil777
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 May 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,825
Location: Montreal, Québec

11 Sep 2009, 10:22 am

Hnnnn, i have usually no bones with the american population per se, but their leadership and ideology sometimes annoys me (see Bush, etc). I dare say the current change of government should prove interesting, if it can deliver.

Page 3 of 11 [ 173 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 11 Next

Jump to:

USA Bashing Post Reply New Topic

USA Bashing