Floating Castles on the Sea: Seastead living

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24MM3gGHjGw&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]



http://www.dangerousminds.net/index.php ... loat_them/

(Linked article follows)


In what seems like something out of J.G. Ballard, Scientology, and the final act of Roland Emmerich’s 2012, like, combined, a number of billionaires are taking to the high seas for their Plan B. I can see their point. You’ve ravaged the planet and trashed the economy, if that possibly results in pitchforks and flaming torches at your door, a thousand miles of ocean makes a better barrier than a gate or concierge.

Thus, Utopia, a floating, billion-dollar luxury liner now being built by Samsung of Korea (you can tour the ship below). Its 200 or so cabins run anywhere from $4 million (that gets you a small condo), to $160 million (that secures you a home of 40,000 feet). Prices aside, what kind of people would choose such a lifestyle? A fascinating article in today’s Alternet provides the answer:

Thiel is also the person who last year wrote, “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.” Maybe it’s also not surprising that he does believe America’s decline started with women gaining the right to vote? Unfortunately, Thiel and Friedman are the more benign tip of the iceberg here.

The article continues by listing the far graver misdeeds of the other players in the flee-to-the-sea movement. They include former Carlyle Chairman and Donald Rumsfeld crony, Frank Carlucci, as well as financier Danny Pang.

Pang, along with Carlucci, are founders of the Frontier Group (the backers of the Utopia). Pang died, though, back in September (under mysterious circumstances) from possible suicide. And perhaps not a moment too soon. He’d recently been accused of the execution-style murder of his wife, as well as the embezzlement of hundreds of millions from his private equity firm, the PEMGroup.

As far as I can see, a Seasteder is not taking a thing away from a land-lubber. If someone wants to float his home on the high seas, good luck to him. I a group of libertarians want to set up their own country on an unclaimed island or an island purchased from some party, let them do it. They are not taking anything from anyone.

ruveyn

There's a few things. Materials and wealth. Granted, it costs money to construct such a thing but one time cost vs a life of luxury avoiding taxation. Not too hard.

They wish to benefit from society without being a part of it or contributing.

Well, no, they are buying materials, so they aren't taking them. The only thing being lost is tax base.

As for "benefiting from society without being a part of it or contributing", well, they are getting themselves on a boat and leaving the rest of us, so I guess that could be called "not being a part of it", but then again, they isolated themselves while still on the mainland, so what's the big difference? Even further, what do we mean by "contributing"? For them to get money, someone had to give it to them, and often in our society giving someone money is in part an exchange, maybe we could say that their contributions are overvalued, or that they merely inherited the current stock of wealth they have, but if they have income, then clearly something is likely being contributed to society.

The problem I see with using the words "contributing" when referring to taxes, is that people invoke this in an utterly idiotic manner, as they aim to say "taxes are just", but the is that nobody really would say that a 100% tax rate is a just, nor would we consider utterly arbitrary losses particularly just, so the question that I see is simple: Let's say that there is a certain just tax rate? How do you propose to calculate it, and on what considerations? I am fine with granting you the fact that altering taxes on an individual basis would be too much of a pain to reasonably do, but even if we are going to evaluate the wealthy as a class, how would you determine the just tax rate? And let's even say that society is taxing more or less than is actually "just" what would you say that a wealthy person should do? (and if you deny justice, then why is there an issue with "benefiting without contributing"? It just sounds like they are just trying to fight back against us screwing them over.)

Call me when they have Castles in the Sky

I assume they will construct their SeaSteads material they buy with their own money. I further assume they paid taxes on the income they use to build their sea born freehold. Once they take their purchased property out past the limit of jurisdiction we have no further tax claims on them. Out of sight, out of mind and out of our jurisdiction.


Once they cast off they our apart from the rest of us. They have no claims on us nor do we have further claims on them. I assume the Seasteaders will support themselves by some kind of useful (and profitable economic activity). Since they are responsible for their own defense, they have no obligations to pay any further taxes to the land lubbers. Once they are out to sea they are on their own.

ruveyn

In order to create an economy that trades within the rest of the world, they need something of value. Either they horde gold and rob the rest of the world of that value and use it to their advantage at points of need whilst otherwise holding the economy hostage or they have to create a trade that will generate their own value. If they are heads/owners of multinational corporations, they already own such income generating industries and have found a vessel to avoid taxation while still enjoying an income from those peoples who buy their products. And if one studies the current corporate trends one would see the modern robber barons are little more than beneficiaries from poorly constructed duopolies and triopolies where the competition is so limited that they clearly benefit and can crush any competition before they become an economic threat.

I don't know if I'd call what's be discussed here as 'seasteading.' When I've seen that term used previously, it seems to be more about people who want to practice a form of seaborne small-scale self-sufficiency. People will sell off their real estate, their car, and most of their possesions, buy a small sailboat, and equip it to spend extended periods away from land. The idea is that the boat becomes a floating homestead on the sea (hence seasteading). The motivation on the part of the seasteaders could range from the Randesque libertarian principles discussed earlier in the thread, to a desire to travel the world, to an interesting way to spend retirement.

The Seasteading Institute would actually be misnamed in this regard. I would argue that what they're trying to do here is more like creating an offshore mircronation, though I think they're being rather optimistic about their ability to be truly independent and outside the laws and influences of other nations. Between EEZs, fishing and mineral rights, and maritime law, someone far away is going to have say in what an offshore community can and can't do.

And the pirates.

I don't really get why anyone would be getting indignant about this, people have been living on boats or becoming tax exiles for years. Personally I love the idea, if I ever was to become fabulously wealthy I'd be shopping for a decommissioned oil rig in international waters to turn into my home away from other people ASAP. I'd use a satellite unlink to run a data haven, build all the exotic weaponry I wanted, grow plants and play with chemicals to my heart's content without any nosy government folks telling me I'm not allowed to, and generally enjoy life free from the hell that is other people. I fail to see the problem here.

I wouldn't want a luxury liner, I'd want a Navy vessel such as an aircraft carrier or a submarine. I'll name it the Dystopia just to be oppositional.

No, no, no, no. It has to have a much better name, like Rapture! (guess which video game series I am thinking of)

Gears of War!! !

Consider Japan. Hardly any natural resources. How do they earn their way. They buy raw materials and turn out finished high value added products. That what floating libertarians can do. All they need is a technologically proficient population.

ruveyn

The problem is that you cannot game online worth a "ship" using a satellite uplink. Latency man, Latency!

Actually, in Halo multiplayer the more lag you have the more death-defying stunts you can perform.