Religous Thought of Aspies

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I am not the least bit bored at 75. I learn new stuff every day. But at 1000 or 10,000 I might feel differently.

Have you read Newton's -Principia Mathematica-? I am reading it now.

Have you learned a new branch of mathematics lately? I have.

ruveyn

I suspect he does not answer because he does not really even believe that!

I most certainly do mean what I say or write. I am genetically unable to do otherwise.

I make a distinction between a long healthy life, which could be considerably longer than the ages currently achieved by humans (order of magnitude about 100 years). But FOREVER? With no let up or cessation? If someone offered me a choice between my 75-100 years and Forever with no option to die or cease, I would take my 75 years or so in a New York minute. I dislike boredom far more than I dislike death.

ruveyn

OK I concede. And I suggest with your background and energy and a reasonable amount of health you would not get bored in a thousand years.

it's not eternity that would be boring, it's the implied stagnation.

perhaps, though we are incredibly lucky to exist, we are even luckier to cease to exist.


i spent my early childhood spread across many distinct denominations (no matter how many claimed to be "non-denominational") of christianity. the methodists and baptists are hilarious for pretending to be separate. those churches were always undergoing congregational mitosis due to social schisms. the pentacostals hear "church" and think "party." they were fun, but i find irreligious death-metal to be less terrifyingly death/hell-oriented than the last revival i attended. catholic mass is mostly good for the calisthenic exercise and the threat of exorcism was enough to send us back to the "nondenominational" (read as: baptists and methodists pooling money for a bigger church building) churches.

years and years and years of pastors, reverends, priests, deacons, elders, ministers, and other men seemingly always unworthy of the titles they "earned." every week another few personal stories from their lives. every week another reason or two to mistrust authority figures. so many good lessons. so many terrible lies. all mixed together. no magic decoder ring and the guidebook (often mispronounced: "goodbook") adamantly opposed much of both.

i feel that i am lucky in that i have found my way away from "the light" and can now see that which was previously hidden in relative blackness in much greater detail. many are not so lucky and can only see the blinding light of god and see no hope outside of it. sometimes, i miss the wistful joy of it. generally, my outlook isn't so bleak.

as a child, i understood that "if i don't know something, grownups do." around age 10-12, i started to realize that this theory was incomplete, at best. grownups didn't agree on some of the most important questions i had! sometimes, they had different answers that approached the question from different angles. sometimes, they outright contradicted each other. i felt so alone when i first realized that the only "correct" answer is, so often, "i don't know."

oh, i knew all about "let's find out." but "let's find out" was almost always an excuse to teach a lesson that i wasn't asking about and didn't address the question at all! i couldn't help but ask after every youth sermon on "daniel and the lions' den," "what did the families of daniel's accusers do to deserve being ripped to pieces by lions?" surely, a wrathful god taking vengeance upon the men responsible for the attempted murder of his agent is not strange.... but their wives? their childrend? that's not a "wrathful god." that's the fantasy of the petty, the insecure, the mortal man.

i looked for other options. i didn't consider judaism. at the time, my understanding of religions was informed entirely by inaccurate church descriptions. i thought the only difference between jews and christians was that jews missed the boat and didn't realize christ had come. i didn't consider islam, either. i thought the difference, with them, was that they thought muhammed was christ, come again. mormonism seemed like an option. they seemed to have cooler mythology that showed the hand of god acting more recently. someone told me they didn't drink soda, so i threw that idea out. i wondered if maybe god didn't exist. maybe, we would eventually evolve into god.

at that age, i didn't have a very good grasp on the concept of evolution. it didn't help that my church leaders had always mocked the notion by claiming that, if it were true, there would "still be monkeys giving birth to humans in africa." i didn't understand why they hated the idea so much. my mother's answer to questions about evolution was something like "we've been wearing makeup for thousands of years. people would be born with makeup if evolution were true." as stupid as that seems, now, i wasn't as capable of critical thinking at that age. i was brought up in church and the only source of information more accurate than "grownups" was the guidebook.

it took about two months of sundays to work it out. youth ministers sometimes gave reasonable explanations, but they contradicted each other so well that i learned how to filter "i know" from "i think" from "i was told" from "it would be awesome if." at this point, my family was attending a very large "non-denominational" (baptists/methodists only. lutherans, pentacostals, catholics, jahova's witnesses, mormons, 7th day adventists, and others were openly mocked during sermons.) church that was a few miles from our home and we walked to and from. on the way home, i would ask questions about things that didn't quite make sense. the last walk home, weeks after deciding that i wanted a good answer on this "men from monkeys" thing, i broke down and cried. there was rarely time for a good old fashioned meltdown and so i was used to internalizing the anxiety.

i felt so alone. i felt that i had made a breakthrough; that i had realized something i hadn't considered before. "they're doing it wrong" gave way to "they're wrong." i realized that i didn't need to find the "right" religion. there wasn't one. i tried to ask my mother questions about this and, when she realized where i was going, she became extremely defensive. i got as far as "why do-" or "why does-" over and over again and every time, she would interject with "-bad people not seem to get punished?" "-bad things happen to good people?" "-we die?" "evil exist?" and none of those questions had anything to do (i thought, at the time) with what i wanted to know. all the same, i couldn't ask the question i had in my mind.

over a decade later, when i learned about, and that i had, AS, many such unaskable questions made a lot more sense. f*** if i knew other people didn't think like i did.

but i didn't know i had AS. i didn't know AS existed. i also didn't know about atheism. my brain was trying to figure out which religion was right. when i decided that all of them were wrong, i didn't, immediately, reject spirituality or even the notion of a personal deity. i learned that "i don't know" is a possible answer from a man who was trying to convince me that it wasn't a good one. at 12, i remember going from my science class, where the teacher talked about incredibly large numbers and probability and evolution, to an algebra class. i asked my teacher about probability and evolution, and he jumped ahead to religion. he told me about "pascal's wager," expecting me to see it pascal's way.

i've called myself an atheist ever since. it wouldn't be the last time a math teacher gave me pascal's wager. i caught a 45 minute long lecture -during class- from a geometry teacher who had asked about the "bad religion" patch on my backpack -before class- (it wasn't even mine. it was my sister's backpack.) because i answered "i'm pretty sure it means religion is bad." i don't know if he kept going for the last 10 minutes of class or if he went back to math because i didn't talk to anyone in that class and he kicked me out for taking him up on his challenge to "say it in math."

i wrote "X + Y = everything. X = everything. Y = god. god = 0."

not very good math, really, but it got the point across. it's the first thought that crossed my mind when people freaked out because stephen hawking said that "god isn't necessary." good or bad, it got me the boot.

i learned to keep my mouth shut about it for a long time. the first set of ID tags i was issued, in the army, said "no rel pref." i later had two other sets made, one that said "atheist" and one that said "jedi" because i was tired of being berated in front of my platoon for having dogtags that said "atheist" and i figured i'd at least get a laugh out of it. pushups are more fun when you're laughing, trust me.

not understanding just how much differently most people thought than i did, i was convinced that the people in charge of each religion (even down to the local level) were "in on it." i became engrossed in conspiracy theories. everything from the jfk assassination, to 9/11 being an inside job, to a secret moonbase on the dark side of the moon. i dug out available info (much of which is guesswork, at best) about aleister crowley, jack parsons, charles manson, their connections, and all sorts of other mystical conspiracies. magic seemed less ridiculous than religion and fit my conspiracies well. a little too well.

i was saved from such thinking by scientists. authors and bloggers who talked about my favorite subjects-of-conspiracy who were skeptical of people who claimed to "know" things that weren't, really, "knowable." it was amazing, to me. i'd grown up listening to people talk about how they "knew" the truth. here were people whose job it was to "know" things and they were the first to say "i don't know!" now THIS! THIS was the right answer! this was an honest answer.

and it was like a yellow dot on black paper. it's striking but it draws attention to the black background, as well. "i don't know" is such an unsatisfying answer. most of us would rather have a different answer. personally, i would rather hear "i don't know" then a made-up answer.

as an "out" atheist, i am constantly inundated with the "religious thought" of everyone else. i don't mean here in PPR. this place is set up for the exchange of such ideas. i mean just about any time it comes up. i'm not comfortable pretending to be something i'm not. i'm not comfortable lying to people. this causes problems for me when my in laws want to my wife and i to go with them to mass. i don't stick out in a church (you'd be surprised how many of us blend into the pews beside you, perfectly miming the arm waving, the laying on of hands, the chanting of the rosary...), even a catholic church, whose masses seem designed to identify the uninitiated. though, i'd probably stick out like a sore thumb in a jewish or mormon temple and would be lost in a mosque.

no, i find it easy to play the part of a lapsed believer in any of a great many christian-based-faiths. i was at a catholic funeral service last week and i played my part well enough. i respectfully stood, knelt, sang the hymns, chanted the rosaries, and respectfully accepted a blessing while everyone else ate their deity. when the priest complained (for a full ten minutes! at a f***ing funeral!) about the "persecution" that christians must suffer, each year, hearing "happy holidays," at the mall, i remained seated and silent. when the priest pontificated (for even longer!! ! AT A FXXXING FUNERAL!! !) about those "hate mongering secularists" who would "have the nerve to tell us that our dearly departed friend, james, is not in heaven," i remained seated and silent.

it wasn't until well into the wake, when everyone was drunk enough to move into conversation subjects they know better than to bring up in "mixed company" otherwise, that i was noticed for who i am. personally, i don't see a point to telling a grieving family that i don't see any reason, other than fear, to believe in an afterlife. that just seems unnecessarily unkind. someone had noticed that i don't make the sign of the cross (like a good catholic) and, having been drunk enough to talk politics with me, felt that we were drunk enough to discuss religion. he mentioned his observation and i admitted, having never claimed otherwise, that i was not catholic. his niece heard, and chimed in that, while she used to be catholic, she was now simply "spiritual." i knew i was doomed.

there was no hope for extrication. in a room full of grieving irish catholics, quickly running out of irish whiskey, my new acquaintance (the brother in law of the departed) asked "so what are your religious thoughts." i told him he was going to get me in trouble. his neice understood what i was saying and said "but your wife's catholic. doesn't that cause problems?" she explained that she had left her last boyfriend because, while she is "spiritual," he was rudely dismissive of her "spirituality." when my wife walked by, she grabbed her and said "maybe you can help me with something. do you think it's important to share the same beliefs as your partner?"

my wife looked at me, then back at her and said "i married an atheist." my new acquaintance, this girl's drunken uncle, having missed this or misunderstood, asked me again, "so what are your religious thoughts." being more than a little drunk, i was feeling playful. i asked him "what's the opposite of a holy war?"

"i don't know" he said. "what?"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3wpHBZV47U[/youtube]


OMF(ictional)G. did i really just crap out that block of text? what a terrible waste of time!

tl;dr? just read what's bolded. those are my thoughts on religion.

Tolkien referred to the mortality of men as the Gift of Eru/Illuvatar

Even the immortal elves and the Valar envied men for having that gift.

ruveyn

No one has questioned that. You simply have yet to answer AB's question!

I believe that Life Eternal will become a super bore and after a certain point it will be suffering.

Does that answer the question.

J.R.R.Tolkien characterized the mortality of man as the Gift of Eru/Illuvatar. Even the immortal elves and the Valar were envious of the gift.

ruveyn

The question is AB's, not mine, and you have yet to say *why* you believe that!

However, I do suspect everyone here understands any answer anyone might offer could only be merely speculative.

Basically the question i a matter of whether you prefer to make death voluntary or uncontrollable. There are always ways to become dead. I would prefer to be able to choose that if it became attractive.

In a real religion, there is room for reality. But we haven't figured out everything just yet. F.E.A.R. stands for false evidence appearing real, faith is said to be the opposite of fear. To have a miracle or faith of some kind, doesn't mean that there is no possible scientific or logical explanation for what occurred or what you believe can occur. It simply means that you believed it was possible (though it seemed to be impossible), and it turns out it actually is. People snapping boards and walking across coals didn't necessarily know how it was possible before they did it, most of them just believed it was and then did it. I think it fit to admire such people for their faith and courage. Some of us only research and test and keep safe, never stepping out of our known limits.

God knows how everything works in the universe, there is order. I'm sure for every miracle that has ever occurred or has been written has a logical explanation for it that is beyond our capacity to understand. Most religious people don't want to hear something like that, but I believe it to be true.

I take it you believe the doctrine of annihilation?

Wiccan, I find it funny how insensitive people are towards Wicca, yet go into a fit if you remotely try and argue their beliefs
problem here is no one thinks they are wrong, its not debate its just a prick waving contest
and thats all it will ever be

A valid point.

It is really sad when a community turns on a person in need, physical need, psychological need, spiritual need, whatever kind of need or want, when they reject it says a lot of about them.

James 1:26-27
"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Whenever I hear someone say they don't believe in religion or they think that religion doesn't make sense, I think of this scripture. I don't think they mean "pure religion undefiled" I think they mean RELIGION religion.

You know, I feel like I have the real deal. I was fortunate enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing it with others and it only strengthened my understanding of what the real deal actually is. And the real deal is good. I don't know how people live without it.