Is the name of freedom, you can kill other people

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Oldout
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16 Aug 2012, 10:27 am

Violence should not be taken lightly, but those who denounce it totally are equally repehensible. Here in America we often forget are history. King George did not hand us our independence on a silver platter. We had to fight for it. And we may have to fight for it again.



Dox47
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16 Aug 2012, 11:28 am

enrico_dandolo wrote:
Good luck. The government's got tanks, jet fighters, bombers, artillery, missiles, mines, armoured personnel carriers, automatic weapons, bombers with laser-guided ordnance and more common sense than the people who would try an insurrection with legal weapons.


You know, I really don't want to get into the usual circle of mental masturbation that starts up whenever the how of forcibly resisting the state is discussed, but I've always found the "the government has X superweapons" argument to be fairly specious. All those things might work great for fighting other countries on their soil in an open war situation, but are a bit indiscriminate to use in a low intensity ideological conflict where you can't tell your own people from your enemy and any infrastructure damaged is your own. I don't even imagine open fighting, it would be more like people affiliated with the offending regime wouldn't be able to safely leave their homes.


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edgewaters
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16 Aug 2012, 12:23 pm

Raptor wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Raptor wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Really, you’re giving me too much credit.


Are you denying you proposed a military coup against elected representatives in the capitol (Washington)? It's right there in black and white, I'm afraid. Cheap rhetorical tricks notwithstanding. I am sure you weren't saying the military should go to Washington to do something about, say, the lack of anchovies in local pizzerias ...


There ARE times when revolution is. necessary. THIS country was born of revolution, after all.


They weren't revolting against anyone their fellow citizens had elected to office - a difference that seems to elude you. Also it was a revolution, not a military coup.


A coup sounds like more fun, though.


They didn't do it for fun. They didn't get their ideas about the world from video games.



Raptor
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16 Aug 2012, 12:58 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Raptor wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Raptor wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Really, you’re giving me too much credit.


Are you denying you proposed a military coup against elected representatives in the capitol (Washington)? It's right there in black and white, I'm afraid. Cheap rhetorical tricks notwithstanding. I am sure you weren't saying the military should go to Washington to do something about, say, the lack of anchovies in local pizzerias ...


There ARE times when revolution is. necessary. THIS country was born of revolution, after all.


They weren't revolting against anyone their fellow citizens had elected to office - a difference that seems to elude you. Also it was a revolution, not a military coup.


A coup sounds like more fun, though.


They didn't do it for fun. They didn't get their ideas about the world from video games.


I'm sensing residual butthurt from past threads.


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edgewaters
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16 Aug 2012, 1:58 pm

Raptor wrote:
I'm sensing residual butthurt from past threads.


I'm sensing residual brain cells rattling around in a weak, empty mind, making some sort of squeeky sound that means nothing.



Kraichgauer
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16 Aug 2012, 2:28 pm

John_Browning wrote:
I'll be more convinced of the Catholics' relatively newfound belief in pacifism when they abolish the office of the inquisitor. :lol: If God does not condone killing for any reason, then the Pope has a lot of explaining to do, and he should apologize to Turkey in Arabic or Turkish for stopping their invasion of central Europe, and the Mongols for aiding the Byzantine empire and defending the holy land!

Violence can solve many things- especially repelling violent people. This can apply to nations as well. Look at even WWI- it may have been primarily about which European monarch could prove he had the biggest dick, but even then, it still had the benefit of the fall of the Ottoman empire.

If the government wants to avoid a civil war, it's a no-brainer: leave certain hot button issues alone! The second amendment is not dust about national security and home defense, it was also intended to keep the government honest and accountable to the voters. Our constitutional convention understood that democracies eventually face a crisis and so far have all so far inevitably failed at some point. They also understood that corrupt and tyrannical people have a tendency to rise to power. Man were they ever right about that! Our founders wanted to make sure there was one final line of defense against this- the ability to remove them by violent force.

Many liberals, especially in urban and suburban areas tend to find this scary. However, you probably wouldn't notice a violent uprising much. It can probably be arranged that iphone service will not be affected so you can play angry birds and follow Snooki and the Kardashian sisters on Twitter, I'm sure it will be the government's doing if the internet was affected since cutting people's access to facebook, porn, and ebay would create a second rebellion, the malls are a great haven to keep hipsters occupied, and I don't see any reason why dancing with the stars or American idol would need to be interrupted because it's best to keep the clueless and braindead...well...clueless and braindead. A conservative-libertarian society would offer basically the same trappings to the sheep as a socialist government, but with more to offer for those that take up their civic responsibility. If someone wants a government to baby them, protect them from their own stupid decisions, give you everything as long as the government can keep up deficit spending, and protect you from feeling offended, there already is no shortage of countries that do all that. They can move to one of those places.


Just where does it say in the constitution that the second amendment exists to keep the government in line with threat of armed violence? It should be remembered that the Whiskey Rebellion was put down - - by George Washington - - when a bunch of Pennsylvania yahoos decided they were going to take up arms against the government in opposition to a whiskey tax. I think this illustrates how we are a nation of laws, not a Mad Max world of roving gun men trying to force change through the barrel of a gun.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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16 Aug 2012, 2:39 pm

ruveyn wrote:
In the name of your freedom you can kill someone who is trying to deprive you of your freedom by force. It is simple self defense.

ruveyn


The law, however, might not take so large and liberal an interpretation of the words, "self defence."


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16 Aug 2012, 3:09 pm

visagrunt wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
In the name of your freedom you can kill someone who is trying to deprive you of your freedom by force. It is simple self defense.

ruveyn


The law, however, might not take so large and liberal an interpretation of the words, "self defence."


particularly if the law is written and enforced by freedom hating tyrants.

ruveyn



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16 Aug 2012, 3:15 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'm sensing residual butthurt from past threads.


I'm sensing residual brain cells rattling around in a weak, empty mind, making some sort of squeeky sound that means nothing.


If y'all ain't like Raptuhr y'all ain't no done real 'Merican, y'all


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edgewaters
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16 Aug 2012, 3:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
In the name of your freedom you can kill someone who is trying to deprive you of your freedom by force. It is simple self defense.

ruveyn


The law, however, might not take so large and liberal an interpretation of the words, "self defence."


particularly if the law is written and enforced by freedom hating tyrants.

ruveyn


The law is written and enforced by people who were elected to do so, except in banana republics that are run by freedom hating tyrants, most of which were formed by a military coup or guerrilla insurgency that supposedly did it for "freedom".



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16 Aug 2012, 3:24 pm

Dox47 wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
Good luck. The government's got tanks, jet fighters, bombers, artillery, missiles, mines, armoured personnel carriers, automatic weapons, bombers with laser-guided ordnance and more common sense than the people who would try an insurrection with legal weapons.


You know, I really don't want to get into the usual circle of mental masturbation that starts up whenever the how of forcibly resisting the state is discussed, but I've always found the "the government has X superweapons" argument to be fairly specious. All those things might work great for fighting other countries on their soil in an open war situation, but are a bit indiscriminate to use in a low intensity ideological conflict where you can't tell your own people from your enemy and any infrastructure damaged is your own. I don't even imagine open fighting, it would be more like people affiliated with the offending regime wouldn't be able to safely leave their homes.


Taking your own country`s history as well as recent civil conflicts as an example, it seems much, *much* more likely a civil war would end up being between members of the armed forces picking sides, either with the government or defecting to the rebels/revolutionaries (depending on one's view I suppose). So either the military fights against itself or it fights its citizens armed with light weaponry, and maybe light armor and improvised armored vehicles. In the former situation there will be little involvement of the armed civilians besides potential partisan or militia action; in the latter, partisan action is the limit to their ability to wage war against the government's military machine. Either way the "little guy" who so many advocate being armed for "civil war" is outmatched, outgunned and outnumbered. It is literally suicide to pretend otherwise. Plus the US military fighting against itself sounds like an even more destructive war than they against any other nation on Earth right now


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16 Aug 2012, 7:04 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'm sensing residual butthurt from past threads.


I'm sensing residual brain cells rattling around in a weak, empty mind, making some sort of squeeky sound that means nothing.


Yeah, but you keep coming back to me for more.

Call me dense but I just figured it out. You handwringers are a'feard we dumb murricans is gonna march on Washington of Barack gets re-elected.
That's pretty much the gist of it isn't it?
f**k, I'd be ashamed if I were that paranoid.
:roll:
:lmao:


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16 Aug 2012, 7:38 pm

Freedom is overrated.

Social justice is underrated.


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16 Aug 2012, 7:40 pm

Oldout wrote:
Violence should not be taken lightly, but those who denounce it totally are equally reprehensible.


Those who totally denounce violence are as reprehensible as those who are violent? That is an odd value system.


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16 Aug 2012, 7:45 pm

nominalist wrote:
Freedom is overrated.

Social justice is underrated.


I don't see how they are incompatible .


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16 Aug 2012, 7:54 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
I don't see how they are incompatible .


I agree that they are not necessarily incompatible. However, they can be. For instance, some people have argued against aspects of the Welfare State on the grounds that it deprives them of their freedom.

Where justice and freedom conflict, precedence should, IMO, be given to justice.


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