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cubedemon6073
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05 Oct 2012, 8:28 pm

Plodder wrote:
To the above poster: obedience is not legalism. That is a very commonly used accusation from people who profess faith in Christ but do not actually want to do what he said. They say: "if I did what he said, and dressed modestly, I'd be a legalist." That is wholly untrue. Legalism is the attempt to gain entry to heaven by works by following Old Testament law. It is not the same thing as obedience. An obedient, modestly-dressed Christian woman is not hoping to gain her admittance to heaven on the basis that she was modest. Rather, her admittance is solely on the basis of the blood of Christ - and it is precisely because she follows him that she wishes to obey his commandment mentioned specifically in the New Testament, by wearing modest apparel. Legalism and obedience are NOT the same thing. You cannot excuse disobedience by claiming "I didn't want to be a legalist" because legalism involves keeping all the commandments given under the Old Covenant, whereas obedience involves keeping those given under the New. New Testament commandments to women believers include modest dress. Hence, modesty is not "legalism" at all. It is basic Christianity. Your claim that all we have to do is believe in Jesus and confess is a false claim. The Bible points out that demons also believe in Jesus. Believing alone does not save you. You must REPENT of your old life. The two things Jesus commands are REPENTANCE and belief, not confession and belief. Please do not make statements about the Bible that are wrong and do not use the word "legalism" without knowing what it means, otherwise you will confuse people seeking to lead a holy life.


Am I truthfully wrong? I based this conclusion on the premises that I have. One premise is that everyone has a sinful nature. Another is there are times it seems like that if one obeys one commandment one can disobey another. For example, what if a parent encourages a child to steal? What does the child do? If a child obeys the parent then he sins by stealing. If he disobeys he sins by being disobedient and not honoring the parent. I am confused and I was trying to use the main axiom(s) of God to resolve this which was to love God with all your heart and might and love thy neighbor as you do yourself. Another thing I believe it says is suffer not a witch to live. Part of loving God is obedience. Was the inquisition correct in mudering witches. Was the commandment of thou shalt not kill negated in this case? I don't understand. If I am wrong and spreading false gospel then I apologize. Will you accept my apology and will you show me why I am wrong? I thought this was the true conclusion that followed from the premises based upon certain inconsistencies that can crop up. If I am wrong and spreading a false gospel through wrong premises am I a horrible person? I feel horrible now.



Tensu
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05 Oct 2012, 9:23 pm

I've also had some frustration with people not following the Bible. I once attended a church service were some guy was treating religion like some sort of get-rich-quick scheme.

I don't let it get to me.



KinetiK
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05 Oct 2012, 9:54 pm

Most Christians are cafeteria Christians. Either that or they're batshit insane fundamentalists.



pat_can
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05 Oct 2012, 10:08 pm

lady_katie wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts everyone...

Does anyone have an opinion as to what the most logic-based Christian denomination might be? I quite like watching the Duggar family (19 kids and counting) simply because they seem to practice what they preach for the most part. As far as I know they attend a non-denominational home church, which may or may not contribute to them seeming to be less hypocritical. The best I've found has been Presbyterian because they actually read the bible, which you would think would be a given but sadly it is not always the case.


Reformed baptist are very logic. Look the London 1689 baptist confession of faith.

Also, christianism is about relationship with God.



Kraichgauer
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05 Oct 2012, 10:38 pm

KinetiK wrote:
Most Christians are cafeteria Christians. Either that or they're batshit insane fundamentalists.


I'd take the cafeteria Christians over the batshit fundies any day.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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06 Oct 2012, 5:25 am

Thank God they don't, or else we would be like Afghanistan.



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06 Oct 2012, 3:04 pm

For those who don't know...

Cafeteria Christian (n): A person who professes Christianity, yet who believes and follows only those Christian doctrines that provide the most comfort while ignoring those doctrines that might make them a better person.

The term is derived from the way many people choose their meals in a cafeteria or buffet restaurant; that is, giving preference to those food that taste good, while ignoring those foods that are good for them.

Thus, we have nominal Christians that show hospitality and kindness toward each other while ignoring those who need kindness and hospitality the most (i.e., the handicapped, the poor, the very old, the behaviorally 'different', foreigners, homeless people, and people of other religions).


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06 Oct 2012, 3:17 pm

pat_can wrote:
lady_katie wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts everyone...

Does anyone have an opinion as to what the most logic-based Christian denomination might be? I quite like watching the Duggar family (19 kids and counting) simply because they seem to practice what they preach for the most part. As far as I know they attend a non-denominational home church, which may or may not contribute to them seeming to be less hypocritical. The best I've found has been Presbyterian because they actually read the bible, which you would think would be a given but sadly it is not always the case.


Reformed baptist are very logic. Look the London 1689 baptist confession of faith.

Also, christianism is about relationship with God.


I would never want to have a relationship with such an evil being, that's why Satan is my man. Satan is the patron saint of reason and logic. As Martin Luther said "reason is the biggest enemy of religion." and "in order to be a Christian, one must tear out the eyes of his reason."

Any Christians who feels they are a reasonable person, or a fan of science cannot possibly be a true Christian since Reason is the realm of Satan.

“We’re men of science… ya know, we believe in the establishment of a biological order through the maelstrom of physical and chemical chaos." - Simon Pegg and Nick Frost

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Danimal
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07 Oct 2012, 3:49 am

Seriously, folks? How is it possible to believe in the inerrancy of the bible yet follow only the parts you like? If you believe this, you also believe that genocide is acceptable, donkeys can talk, water comes from rocks, bread falls from the sky, and men can walk in blast furnaces.
Here are my rules that I follow. If it doesn't work in the real world, it probably never happened. In the real world people don't turn into salt, have conversation with a snake, and try to offer their child as a sacrifice to prove loyalty to a deity. People don't do these things today and never did in the past. Also, follow the evidence wherever it leads you. Read the bible objectively and without bias. You may discover that some of the "heroes" of the bible were actually vile men. The "miracles" of Jesus were mere grandstanding and utterly pointless. How can a savior be a sacrifice when he clearly knew that he would come back to life? That's not a sacrifice. Jesus, who is said to have abstained from hsi divinity to live as a human, clearly did not live as a man. Most men marry and have children. Men do not perform godlike miracles. Men work and provide for their families. Men generally don't wander the countryside like a group of gypsies. Men work hard, relax, enjoy their families, and go on fishing trips. Jesus clearly didn't live as a man. He showed his divinity whenever he wanted.
If it is unacceptable in real life, why is it acceptable in the bible? Would you actually go to a doctor who prescribed wine for illnesses? Would you go to a doctor who put oil on your head and prayed for your recovery? Would you really go to a psychiatrist who would diagnose demon possession and recommend exorcisms? The answer is hell, no.
Faith withers in the face of logic and reason. Martin Luther, another vile person, said that he wanted to "put out the eyes of your reason". Even old anti-Semitic Martin knew that reason is incompatible with faith. Christians have followed Luther's advice for centuries.
Of course, you are free to embrace a homophobic religion based on myths, brutality, and fear. This is still America, and your freedom of religion is guarenteed. However, religion is not free from criticism, and people are free to reject it. Unfortunately, so many Christians have internalized their religion that any criticism of it is perceived as a personal attack. That's neither logical nor reasonable. I am not bothered by attacks on atheism. Most of us want to lead quiet, decent lives while free from deceitful religions. However, whenever I express an atheist point of view, I am instantly labelled a "militant atheist". I'm accused of contributing to the downfall of America. It's illogical but that's the way it is.
I expect that I'm going to get some really pissed off responses. Fire away.



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07 Oct 2012, 6:36 am

ruveyn wrote:
Some Christians believe that Christ -fulfilled- the Old Law and it is no long operative. They believe that Christ gave a New Law.

That is why some Christians do not keep kosher and eat rare meat soaked with blood.

ruveyn
My sister told me that she believes that, but now she 'flat-out' denies that she has ever said it or believed it. The new church that she goes too apparently practices Jewish customs like wearing kippot, tzitzit, as well as wearing a prayer shawl...this confuses me a lot, and I said to her that her church is misleading.


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The_Walrus
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07 Oct 2012, 7:28 am

Danimal wrote:
Here are my rules that I follow. If it doesn't work in the real world, it probably never happened. In the real world people don't turn into salt, have conversation with a snake, and try to offer their child as a sacrifice to prove loyalty to a deity. People don't do these things today and never did in the past. Also, follow the evidence wherever it leads you. Read the bible objectively and without bias. You may discover that some of the "heroes" of the bible were actually vile men. The "miracles" of Jesus were mere grandstanding and utterly pointless. How can a savior be a sacrifice when he clearly knew that he would come back to life? That's not a sacrifice. Jesus, who is said to have abstained from hsi divinity to live as a human, clearly did not live as a man. Most men marry and have children. Men do not perform godlike miracles. Men work and provide for their families. Men generally don't wander the countryside like a group of gypsies. Men work hard, relax, enjoy their families, and go on fishing trips. Jesus clearly didn't live as a man. He showed his divinity whenever he wanted.

People have sacrificed their children to prove loyalty to a deity. The practice was widespread in Ancient Carthage, and the Norse kings would sacrifice their children to Odin in times of famine. In the Roman Empire, it was at one time common to make sacrifices to Manes and Mars. During the Shang dynasty, Chinese villagers would sacrifice children to appease the river gods. The Mayans and Aztecs would regularly sacrifice children in order to stop the world ending, and some tribes of Native Americans would sacrifice a young girl annually. The Moche and the Incas would also regularly sacrifice children, particularly young teenagers.

Jesus was fully human, but he was also fully God. There are many men who don't have families, and many (though not as many) who wander around.



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07 Oct 2012, 9:28 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Jesus was fully human, but he was also fully God. There are many men who don't have families, and many (though not as many) who wander around.


There was a little over seven hundred years' worth of debate (read: bloody slaughter) over that point, actually, culminating in the church now known as the Roman Catholic Church gaining ascendency. There's really many ways to interpret the relationship between Christ and the Divine.


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ruveyn
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07 Oct 2012, 11:12 am

[quote="The_Walrus".

Jesus was fully human, but he was also fully God. There are many men who don't have families, and many (though not as many) who wander around.[/quote]

That means God took a sh*t daily or most of the time except when He had Constipation. Did God's fecal productions glow with a Holy Light. Did His crap have a halo?

ruveyn



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07 Oct 2012, 11:32 am

ruveyn wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Jesus was fully human, but he was also fully God. There are many men who don't have families, and many (though not as many) who wander around.

That means God took a sh*t daily or most of the time except when He had Constipation. Did God's fecal productions glow with a Holy Light. Did His crap have a halo?

ruveyn


By the black hand of Hume: Holy s**t.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o



TM
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07 Oct 2012, 12:15 pm

I like to think it's because most Christians wouldn't so much enjoy having to stone their disrespectful children.

Quote:
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
Deuteronomy 21:18-21



ruveyn
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07 Oct 2012, 12:22 pm

TM wrote:
I like to think it's because most Christians wouldn't so much enjoy having to stone their disrespectful children.

Quote:
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
Deuteronomy 21:18-21


There is a Rabbinic "drash" (commentary) which said that law was never actually invoked in Israel. It is only there to establish the principle that unrefrangible stubbornness is a sin in God's eyes. Most likely the misbehaving son was kicked out of the house with just the clothes we was wearing at the time.

Please see: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t08/t0811.htm

ruveyn