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Where the GOP goes from here

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MarketAndChurch
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09 Nov 2012, 6:07 am

DiscardedWhisper wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
3.) I disagree. Unfortunately, you can love a Gay all you want, but to deny them marriage makes you into a bigoted douchy hater. Which is unfortunate. But we must stand our ground on this one, and fight the Christians into being more tolerant because they are cause of most of the hates towards gays. It isn't singling out a "certain" group, because anyone, regardless of their desired living arrangement, cannot marry unless they match the male-female ideal. We have limitations on age, we have limitations on numbers of persons who can marry, we have limitations on familial connections. The male-female bias is rigid in that sense and we should maintain it. Allow gays every benefit in the book, love them the same, and give them another marriage-like institution, just for them.


I honestly don't see how gay marriage hurts anyone. We're not talking about NAMBLA here. There's an overtone that gays would be bad parents, but there's probably a proportionate number of straight people who are bad parents. Gays want to have nice jobs and run businesses just like anyone else, I think the GOP would find surprising allies in the gay community if it altered it's stance on them.

The GOP needs to make fiscal responsibility the centerpiece of it's platform and phase out it's archaic stance on social issues.


It destroys the male-female bias.

Gay marriage aside, I think the GOP should make outreaches on every front. Scholarships for gay teens, promoting gays in the armed forces, having gay CEO's and people of high authority speak at GOP sponsored events to inspire the next generation of Americans, supporting the "It gets better" movement starring gay republicans, and defeating the anti-gay sentiment of the Christian right. Our values are what unite the various factions of the GOP, not our sexuality.

Then.... and ONLY then... will the Gay see that they are treated as an equal. If they are treated as an equal, marriage is just cosmetic, its of no big deal to the 90% of gay couples who have lived together for most of their lives. Making them feel as the equals they are is the challenge. They are hedging all of their bets on marriage as the way to achieve that, I think there are less destructive ways and we can give them their own form of marriage if they really really want that.


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simon_says
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09 Nov 2012, 7:58 am

A real problem with the Republican base is that they have become reality-challenged. They live in the echo chamber of entertainment news and commentary. That's not real. You now have Republicans David Frum and Joe Scarborough admitting that Republicans were totally fleeced and lied to in this election. Many actually believed they were winning despite the polling averages, which have been deadly accurate for years. because highly paid entertainers told them they had it sewn up. That's a problem for them.

Romney and Ryan were apparently also totally shell-shocked, which I find shocking. They believed their own bs and their own polling systems to the exclusion of the outside world and known reliable methods. I just assumed they knew better. But the larger problem is the echo chamber that drives the bs to the base.



DiscardedWhisper
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09 Nov 2012, 1:47 pm

simon_says wrote:
A real problem with the Republican base is that they have become reality-challenged. They live in the echo chamber of entertainment news and commentary. That's not real. You now have Republicans David Frum and Joe Scarborough admitting that Republicans were totally fleeced and lied to in this election. Many actually believed they were winning despite the polling averages, which have been deadly accurate for years. because highly paid entertainers told them they had it sewn up. That's a problem for them.

Romney and Ryan were apparently also totally shell-shocked, which I find shocking. They believed their own bs and their own polling systems to the exclusion of the outside world and known reliable methods. I just assumed they knew better. But the larger problem is the echo chamber that drives the bs to the base.


How are democrats any less reality-challenged when they think you can spend your way out of debt and that you can make jobs by taxing job creators into bankruptcy? I'm quite well aware that Republicans are full of s**t on many issues but what in god's name led you to believe that re-electing Obama was going to fix anything? When your hire a guy to fix your house and he's burns the place down, it's generally not considered a good idea to hire him a second time.

I honestly cannot, on any logical level, understand why you or anyone else would vote for someone as f*****g incompetent as Barack Obama. We're not four days out from his being re-elected and he's already pitching the same BS as before.



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09 Nov 2012, 1:52 pm

DiscardedWhisper wrote:
simon_says wrote:
A real problem with the Republican base is that they have become reality-challenged. They live in the echo chamber of entertainment news and commentary. That's not real. You now have Republicans David Frum and Joe Scarborough admitting that Republicans were totally fleeced and lied to in this election. Many actually believed they were winning despite the polling averages, which have been deadly accurate for years. because highly paid entertainers told them they had it sewn up. That's a problem for them.

Romney and Ryan were apparently also totally shell-shocked, which I find shocking. They believed their own bs and their own polling systems to the exclusion of the outside world and known reliable methods. I just assumed they knew better. But the larger problem is the echo chamber that drives the bs to the base.


How are democrats any less reality-challenged when they think you can spend your way out of debt and that you can make jobs by taxing job creators into bankruptcy? I'm quite well aware that Republicans are full of sh** on many issues but what in god's name led you to believe that re-electing Obama was going to fix anything? When your hire a guy to fix your house and he's burns the place down, it's generally not considered a good idea to hire him a second time.

I honestly cannot, on any logical level, understand why you or anyone else would vote for someone as f***ing incompetent as Barack Obama. We're not four days out from his being re-elected and he's already pitching the same BS as before.


That job creators thing is BS. It's presupposing that jobs will be created if we throw more money to owners. Business owners will only make jobs if they have to in order to create more profit. That's it.



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09 Nov 2012, 1:58 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
DiscardedWhisper wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
3.) I disagree. Unfortunately, you can love a Gay all you want, but to deny them marriage makes you into a bigoted douchy hater. Which is unfortunate. But we must stand our ground on this one, and fight the Christians into being more tolerant because they are cause of most of the hates towards gays. It isn't singling out a "certain" group, because anyone, regardless of their desired living arrangement, cannot marry unless they match the male-female ideal. We have limitations on age, we have limitations on numbers of persons who can marry, we have limitations on familial connections. The male-female bias is rigid in that sense and we should maintain it. Allow gays every benefit in the book, love them the same, and give them another marriage-like institution, just for them.


I honestly don't see how gay marriage hurts anyone. We're not talking about NAMBLA here. There's an overtone that gays would be bad parents, but there's probably a proportionate number of straight people who are bad parents. Gays want to have nice jobs and run businesses just like anyone else, I think the GOP would find surprising allies in the gay community if it altered it's stance on them.

The GOP needs to make fiscal responsibility the centerpiece of it's platform and phase out it's archaic stance on social issues.


It destroys the male-female bias.

Gay marriage aside, I think the GOP should make outreaches on every front. Scholarships for gay teens, promoting gays in the armed forces, having gay CEO's and people of high authority speak at GOP sponsored events to inspire the next generation of Americans, supporting the "It gets better" movement starring gay republicans, and defeating the anti-gay sentiment of the Christian right. Our values are what unite the various factions of the GOP, not our sexuality.

Then.... and ONLY then... will the Gay see that they are treated as an equal. If they are treated as an equal, marriage is just cosmetic, its of no big deal to the 90% of gay couples who have lived together for most of their lives. Making them feel as the equals they are is the challenge. They are hedging all of their bets on marriage as the way to achieve that, I think there are less destructive ways and we can give them their own form of marriage if they really really want that.


I guess Santa Claus must have come early if you believe that a party of male-female bias will struggle on behalf of gays. I really don't want to go back to the Civil rights movement but this is necessary. How many believers in white superiority do you believe were fighting for black equality?



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09 Nov 2012, 2:04 pm

I don't get opposition to gay marriage. I think government should get out of marriage period and not has any say in who we marry but in the meantime discriminating again gays is still morally wrong. The 'government should stay out of it' argument isn't what most Republicans use tho, it's usually just based on religion and the definition of words which is dumb/doesn't make sense.



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09 Nov 2012, 3:18 pm

If the GOP wants to go anywhere except into irrelevant obscurity, then its leaders should break away from the Christian Right and its sanctimonious moralizing, and focus solely on the core values of smaller government, lower taxes, less spending, education, law-and-order issues, infrastructure, and jobs.

Then I might vote for them again.

Heck, if they eliminate tax-free status for all religious organizations, then I might actually join them!



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09 Nov 2012, 4:30 pm

I think they've put themselves in the position to lose tight races again and again. But they can still win. With the right candidate or events either party can still win. Sometimes it's just luck. This time it was bad strategy and bad luck.

Quote:
How are democrats any less reality-challenged when they think you can spend your way out of debt and that you can make jobs by taxing job creators into bankruptcy? I'm quite well aware that Republicans are full of sh** on many issues but what in god's name led you to believe that re-electing Obama was going to fix anything? When your hire a guy to fix your house and he's burns the place down, it's generally not considered a good idea to hire him a second time.

I honestly cannot, on any logical level, understand why you or anyone else would vote for someone as f***ing incompetent as Barack Obama. We're not four days out from his being re-elected and he's already pitching the same BS as before.


Clinton is the only President to balance the budget in 30 years. Less spending, more taxes, a smaller military and a strong economy is how he did it. None of it was mutually exclusive. A balanced approach is hardly radical and a return to the Clinton rates is hardly the end of the world.



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09 Nov 2012, 4:41 pm

DancingDanny wrote:

I guess Santa Claus must have come early if you believe that a party of male-female bias will struggle on behalf of gays.




Well they won't because of the Christians within our party.


DancingDanny wrote:

I really don't want to go back to the Civil rights movement but this is necessary. How many believers in white superiority do you believe were fighting for black equality?



The Christians are not white supremacists... matter of fact all of them would give anything to baptize all of the world into Christiandom, and are actively doing so. Their congregations not only have mixed races, they are actively evangelizing throughout most of the world, have outreach programs to the poor, often minority filled neighborhoods...

There are racists in the GOP, even racist Christians. Those racist Christians represent half of half of a percent. The rest, are trying to bring people to christ, regardless of their race, gender, or creed.


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09 Nov 2012, 4:43 pm

DancingDanny wrote:

That job creators thing is BS. It's presupposing that jobs will be created if we throw more money to owners. Business owners will only make jobs if they have to in order to create more profit. That's it.




Letting people keep their earnings is throwing money at them?


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09 Nov 2012, 4:46 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:

I guess Santa Claus must have come early if you believe that a party of male-female bias will struggle on behalf of gays.




Well they won't because of the Christians within our party.


DancingDanny wrote:

I really don't want to go back to the Civil rights movement but this is necessary. How many believers in white superiority do you believe were fighting for black equality?



The Christians are not white supremacists... matter of fact all of them would give anything to baptize all of the world into Christiandom, and are actively doing so. Their congregations not only have mixed races, they are actively evangelizing throughout most of the world, have outreach programs to the poor, often minority filled neighborhoods...

There are racists in the GOP, even racist Christians. Those racist Christians represent half of half of a percent. The rest, are trying to bring people to christ, regardless of their race, gender, or creed.


The entire approach you're taking to this is separate but equal all over again. That was the salient point.



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09 Nov 2012, 4:46 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:

That job creators thing is BS. It's presupposing that jobs will be created if we throw more money to owners. Business owners will only make jobs if they have to in order to create more profit. That's it.




Letting people keep their earnings is throwing money at them?


Business owners will only make jobs if they have to in order to create more profit. That's it.



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09 Nov 2012, 4:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Back in the 1850's the Republicans replaced the Whigs. It is time to replace the Republicans. The downfall of the Republican party is that it became the party of Evangelical Christians. American politics must be religion neutral or the Liberals will simply take over and eat the rest of us alive.

The Liberal program can be opposed purely on grounds of reason, fact and history. The last thing we need is Bible Thumpers.

ruveyn


Not being American, my point of view may differ, but the only really conservative stance I have is immigration and economic policy. When it comes to gay marriage I don't see a problem, when it comes to pot legalization I see something that can be a profitable industry, prostitution got no problem with it, so on most social issues I think I share a stance with liberals. The difference comes in economic policy and immigration policy for me.



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09 Nov 2012, 4:57 pm

Charles Krauthammer has a good piece on what we are likely to see for the GOP going forward. An upgrade can be made for the party, but the economic message from the GOP remains popular with many.

Often mentioned of late has been the hispanic vote. I'm guessing the GOP will find different ways to reach out and find new partners in that community. Additionally, with the youth vote, the large millennial generation, the largest portion of them where born between 1990 - 92, making them between 20 to 22 years of age, I believe. For youth social issues, such as racism, gay marriage, drug usage, etc. are of greater importance generally. As one ages, typically economic ideas play more of a consideration in political thought.

"For Losing Republicans, Moderation Not The Way Forward"

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorial ... vative.htm

&

"Good News: Racism Declining in America"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... n-america/

From Walter Russell Mead's sight:

Quote:
Even those who voted for Romney can take heart in one aspect of the 2012 campaign: racism continues its historic retreat in the United States.
In the heat of the campaign, voices were heard saying that a defeat for Obama in 2012 would be a sign of racism in America. We could never buy that. Though we have no illusions that dark forces like racism, anti-Semitism and other kinds of bigotry still linger in the U.S. and in other places around the world, it seemed to us that electing an African American president in the first place was a pretty clear indication that white racism in America continues, thankfully, to wane.
The President’s re-election should be further evidence of deep change in America. While the President did not do as well among whites as among other groups, partisan loyalty and the mixed economic record of his first term account for the fall off in his support. A white president in his shoes would have also faced a tough fight for re-election and would have lost some states that he carried the first time around.
As we’ve written, the election of an African American president hasn’t brought much economic relief to American blacks. The economic divide is very much with us, and in some ways it is worse than it was in 2008. Sadly, it’s unlikely that the policies of the current president will be able to do much to solve these problems. But in spite of the serious issues that remain, the long slow racial healing of America continues. That is something we can all be grateful for this year.



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09 Nov 2012, 5:05 pm

You know that for every writer writing an article about how the GOP needs to move to the center there are atleast five Christian conservatives claiming that Romney was a moderate and that what the GOP needs to do is cater to them even more. :lol:



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09 Nov 2012, 5:42 pm

What's interesting about this election is that way less people showed up at the polls this time around. Not only did Romney not match McCain's totals in 2008 but Obama lost 8 MILLION votes from 2008. 2012 doesn't even match 2004's totals. It really is amazing result when you think about it, America has not shrank since 2008 and it certainly hasn't since 2004. There was obviously a deep dissatisfaction with both candidates.

I wonder what portion of the missing vote were or would of been Paul supporters. Gary Johnson had over a million votes and that was without Ron Paul's endorsement.