ILLUMINATI

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Robdemanc
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31 Jul 2013, 2:17 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Thats not the "Illuminati" ( of either fiction or fact) a club in the late 1700's formed to promote the ideals of the Enlightenment in Bavaria (therefore feared by the Catholic Church) who got seized upon as a boogeyman by a cardinal who authored a propaganda book about how the illumanatti was out to corrupt all of mankind. They died out after 15 years but they live on as boogeymen to every hysteric ever since to this day. But this later, fictional Illumanatti, though it is an evil cabal, it is not particularly plutocratic as I understand it. There just a bunch of well organized evil people!

you're thinking of the Bilderburgers.

After WWII the rich elites of america and europe started to hobknob at those conferences at the hotel in bilderburg. That lead to the bilderburger conspiracy theories.

Get your tin hat theories staight!

They sound similar. The Illuminati is supposed to have control over governments and industries in the same way the Bilderburgers have.

nominalist
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31 Jul 2013, 2:36 pm

The Bilderburg Meetings are a high-powered think tank - nothing more.

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Fnord
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31 Jul 2013, 3:17 pm

NewDawn wrote:

nominalist wrote:

The whole Illuminati conspiracy movement is made up of hoaxers and dupes.

What, in your opinion, is the motivation of these hoaxers? I take it that these people deliberately spread these far fetched fantasies, but for what purpose? In the hope to make money because Dan Brown did? To feel important? Could it be that some of them suffer from some form of psychosis?

It's the only way that some people have of feeling important. Fearmongers are people who deliberately induce fear in others for their own purposes, such as: (1) trying to convince you of the correctness of their opinions; (2) trying to promote an idea for financial gain; (3) trying to discredit people who disagree with them; or (4) just the sadistic glee of knowing that they have the power to induce fear and doubt in others.

Y'know ... Trolls!

nominalist
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31 Jul 2013, 4:05 pm

Fnord wrote:

The rise in conspiracy theories are also an indication of social disorganization. When dominant sources of authority (religious, political, etc.) are no longer trusted, some people turn to a gnostic populism.

Fnord
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31 Jul 2013, 4:11 pm

nominalist wrote:

Fnord wrote:

More, please? I've been trying for years to articulate my thoughts on this ...

NewDawn
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31 Jul 2013, 6:02 pm

Fnord wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Fnord wrote:

More, please? I've been trying for years to articulate my thoughts on this ...

I've seen a somewhat similar trend of conspiracy when in the 1990's the lifeless bodies of two teen girls where found in the house of the Belgian pedophile Marc Dutroux. The case was so utterly shocking that a lot of people had trouble accepting that such things can happen. It gave rise to a flurry of conspiracy theories that in essence were exactly the same as the 'Illuminati" stuff (ye know, sinister all powerfull and deeply secret organisation with an iron grip on every government of the world). Or a more general example that Americans would know about: the Dreyfus affair.

Could it be that "Illuminati' is a reaction to the bewildering 9/11? Do some people perhaps concoct such stories to make sense of what they thought could never happen? It certainly isn't unique in history. The 'names' may differ, but the general idea doesn't seem to be.

Fnord
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31 Jul 2013, 8:29 pm

NewDawn wrote:

... Could it be that "Illuminati' is a reaction to the bewildering 9/11? Do some people perhaps concoct such stories to make sense of what they thought could never happen? It certainly isn't unique in history. The 'names' may differ, but the general idea doesn't seem to be.

This Illuminati crap has been around since the late 1700s, and has lasted longer than the actual Illuminati fraternity.

I think it helps some people come to grips with events to imagine an invisible, yet omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being or conspiracy of such beings pulling unseen strings and making people do what they would otherwise not do.

To put it another way, the "Illuminati" and other alleged conspiracies are the new Olympian gods - each controlling the fates of us mere mortals for their own selfish amusement.

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31 Jul 2013, 8:34 pm

Yes,mortals are amusing.

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naturalplastic
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31 Jul 2013, 10:37 pm

Misslizard wrote:

Yes,mortals are amusing.

"What fools these mortals be!"

The character Puck- in "Midsummer Night's Dream"

Fnord
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31 Jul 2013, 10:38 pm

"What bees these mortals fool!" -- the voice actor for the Honey-Nut Cheerios commercials

naturalplastic
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01 Aug 2013, 11:29 am

Fnord wrote:

"What bees these mortals fool!" -- the voice actor for the Honey-Nut Cheerios commercials

you're obsessed with that honey nuts cheerio bee! This is atleast the second time youve posted about him!

Its his near twin brother ( also a cartoon character imposed upon live action scenes) in that allergy spray commercial who confounds me!

Why would a bee have an Hispanic accent?

He flits around the screen like a bee would.

But he talks to the viewer like Ricardo Monteban - in a seductive Spanish inflected Latin-lover baritone for no obvious reason.

I mostly see him on daytime TV which is when mostly women are watching.

So I guess thats why he talks that way.

nominalist
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01 Aug 2013, 11:46 am

Fnord wrote:

More, please? I've been trying for years to articulate my thoughts on this ...

Thank you. What I wrote is a commonly discussed proposition in religious studies. Reliance on gnosis, magic, and divination is an indication that dominant systems of authority are not trusted. Gnosis, magic, and divination shift the center of power from a religious hierarchy, or priesthood, and scriptures to the individual.

A good example is the rise of the bhakti movement in India. Caitanya (1486–1534 A.D.), who become repopularized through the Hare Krishna movement, opposed Vedanta ritual and strict caste divisions. He replaced Vedanta with devotional populism. It became a very successful movement. Both traditional "Hindus" (using the modern term) and Muslims became disciples of Caitanya.

These days, a similar phenomenon is seen with the so-called new age movement. Again, individual experience and gnosis have replaced religious authority structures.

The problem with these anti-establishment movements is their internal contradictions. Without a body of scriptures or a system of priestly succession, a movement will generally disintegrate soon after the death of its founder. The anti-establishment movement has to become institutionalized (or "routinized," as we say in my field) in order to survive.

Fnord
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01 Aug 2013, 12:29 pm

Millenials (among others) are leaving mainstream churches in favor of "High Church Traditions". They* also seem to want:

... not a change in style but a change in substance.
... an end to the culture wars ... a truce between science and faith.
... to be known for what they stand for, not what they are against.
... to ask questions that don’t have predetermined answers.
... churches that emphasize an allegiance to the kingdom of God over an allegiance to a single political party or a single nation.
... their LGBT friends to feel truly welcome in faith communities.
... to be challenged to live lives of holiness, not only when it comes to sex, but also when it comes to living simply, caring for the poor and oppressed, pursuing reconciliation, engaging in creation care and becoming peacemakers.
... less "business as usual", which is to be handed a sugar cookie and then be expected to stick around.

Looking this list over, it does seem that at least some people are looking for something more than a "magical" experience - they're looking for practical, plain-language guidance in matters both physical and spiritual.

I saw a program on Cuba last night. In it, they did a segment on Santaria. While this may seem at first to be a "magical" religion, the religious leaders seem just as likely to dispense good old common-sense advice as they are to hand over a potion or a bag of herbs and bones to their followers.

It seems that people are looking for something to help them make sense of a world that they have little or no control over.

Does this seem "in tune" with what you're saying?

*Reference:

"Why Millenials Are Leaving the Church"; By Rachel Held Evans, Special to CNN, July 27, 2013.[/size]

nominalist
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01 Aug 2013, 1:11 pm

That is true. Even the emerging church movement, which was developed to appeal to Generation X, is not particularly attractive to many millennials. Social networking has not been a good friend to religious triumphalism.

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