Gun control: more divisive than reason

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sonofghandi
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01 Oct 2013, 4:46 pm

Dox47 wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

Just an FYI, the relatively recent crime rate plummet has been linked to the legalization of abortion and the reduction of the birth rate.

I wasn't arguing that guns caused the decline in violent crime, I was arguing that external forces typically have been the chief driver of the murder rate. I was also pointing out that the historic drop in crime has coincided with the liberalization of carry laws nationwide and all time record gun sales, which takes a lot of the air out of the "more guns = more crime" school of argumentation.

I don't think more guns = more crime (or less crime for that matter).

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Sherlock03
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01 Oct 2013, 4:53 pm

Of course you could always weld two or more magazines togeather

Here is a tutorial if you don't believe it. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html? ... 5&t=586506

Or you could simply print the things.

So the question I still don't understand is how will a ban have any effect on criminals?

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01 Oct 2013, 5:06 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:

Or you could simply print the things.

3D printers aren't exactly cheap and thanks to people manufacturing gun parts are likely to have restrictions in due time unfortunately

Sherlock03 wrote:

So the question I still don't understand is how will a ban have any effect on criminals?

What, you mean how they're going to break the law anyways? Or the technical aspects of mass killings/available ammunition?

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Sherlock03
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01 Oct 2013, 5:23 pm

Quote:

3D printers aren't exactly cheap and thanks to people manufacturing gun parts are likely to have restrictions in due time unfortunately

That's true, however if I know geeks we will find a way to make 3D printers cheaply. However this still doesn't address the easier concept of simply welding two magazines together.

Quote:

What, you mean how they're going to break the law anyways? Or the technical aspects of mass killings/available ammunition?

Well, I am assuming the concept of a magazine ban is to prevent access to extended magazines. I have demonstrated that extended magazines can be readily made in your garage for a few bucks. So, what is the point of a ban? It reminds me of the old British police joke, " Stop or I shall say stop again!"

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Sherlock03
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01 Oct 2013, 5:34 pm

Essentially what I am saying is that wishing for a high capacity magazine ban is simply abstract/ emotional thought, which lacks concrete reasoning. Out of sight and out of mind does not equate to out of reach.

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01 Oct 2013, 5:41 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:

That's true, however if I know geeks we will find a way to make 3D printers cheaply.

I hope so, there are so many applications of the technology for the average person, to see it heavily restricted would be an injustice really

Sherlock03 wrote:

However this still doesn't address the easier concept of simply welding two magazines together.

I don't see any way to stop people from doing that realistically, but it does take some skill to work with welding tools (besides investing in buying them) that at least narrows down the amount of people willing and capable of doing this

Sherlock03 wrote:

What's the point in any law if people are going to break it anyways, I guess? You can't always stop the skilled DIY people but you can at least make it difficult for potential dangers to society dependent on basic commercial entities to equip their arsenal. I don't think there is a perfect solution.

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01 Oct 2013, 6:50 pm

Quote:

but it does take some skill to work with welding tools (besides investing in buying them) that at least narrows down the amount of people willing and capable of doing this

TIG and MIG welders are more expensive but arc welding is cheap, as is spot welding, and brazing. If you were a real cheapskate you could even wire 4 car battery together and ark weld with a coat hanger. You could also use mechanical fasteners to get the job done. I could even imagine duct tape and JB weld working well. Really anyone who isn't still a Neanderthal could find some way of attaching two magazines together.

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There are some laws that are feasible and there are some that are not. There is no "perfect solution", however there are more perfect ones. First we must find out what motivates most people to murder and then we can move to change that particular incentive. For example, if the drug war is making murder profitable to gangs and cartels, then move to legalize some drugs and take away their incentive. If people murder as a direct result of mental anguish then move towards helping them improve their condition without stigmatizing them, or stripping them of their rights. I mean for the love of God, some people still think bipolar means that you have multiple personalities.

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LKL
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01 Oct 2013, 7:24 pm

Wrt. 3D printers, even hypothetical cheap ones a decade from now:
Child porn is illegal, but people can just draw pictures of kiddies being raped and spread them around the internet; that doesn't mean that we should lift the ban on kiddie porn. The fact that people can easily circumvent a law is not a good argument against a law.

Sherlock03
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01 Oct 2013, 8:46 pm

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Really, of all the laws you choose to post about child porn? What a terrible thing to lay on someone just casually reading. Seriously, I do not understand the reasoning behind your post at all.

There is a huge difference between stick figures and child abuse. There is very little difference between high capacity magazines and, well... high capacity magazines. I think you may have rushed your post.

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Sherlock03
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01 Oct 2013, 9:00 pm

Quote:

The fact that people can easily circumvent a law is not a good argument against a law

Well, according to that reasoning we could pass a law that bans simply thinking about murder. After all, just because you cant enforce a law doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.. :lol:

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redriverronin
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01 Oct 2013, 9:46 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:

Quote:

She was using the worst thing she could think of to get an emotional response as way to manipulate other people to be on her side.

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01 Oct 2013, 9:52 pm

redriverronin wrote:

Sherlock03 wrote:

Quote:

She was using the worst thing she could think of to get an emotional response as way to manipulate other people to be on her side.

Exactly, sort of like how me using quotes from Sun Tzu and Machiavelli in my sig is conclusive evidence of my evil nature

Sherlock03
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01 Oct 2013, 10:01 pm

How was Sun Tzu evil?

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Last edited by Sherlock03 on 01 Oct 2013, 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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01 Oct 2013, 10:03 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:

How was Sun Tzu bad?

This guy said I can't be trusted because of my Sun Tzu quote, :lol:

he obviously does not understand Sun Tzu...

Dox47
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01 Oct 2013, 10:10 pm

LKL wrote:

Wrt. 3D printers, even hypothetical cheap ones a decade from now:

Clearly, you're not familiar with CNC machine tools, which have been around since the 70s, can build just about anything, and are getting very available in the form of bench top models in the $1500 range. It's all about the market, right now, I can buy a standard capacity mag for 15-40 bucks or so, making manufacture uneconomical, but make them illegal, and suddenly the ability to churn out magazines could be quite valuable indeed.

LKL wrote:

Child porn is illegal, but people can just draw pictures of kiddies being raped and spread them around the internet; that doesn't mean that we should lift the ban on kiddie porn. The fact that people can easily circumvent a law is not a good argument against a law.

Really, REALLY bad analogy. Child porn is illegal because you need to abuse a child to create it; drawing pictures depicting underage sex does not harm any children, and the only reason it's even covered under the CP laws is because people are idiots. We SHOULD lift the ban on digitally created child porn, as the availability of such has been shown to correlate with a drop in child sexual abuse.

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Sherlock03
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01 Oct 2013, 10:12 pm

Quote:

This guy said I can't be trusted because of my Sun Tzu quote, Laughing he obviously does not understand Sun Tzu...

Ah, I see. He was a brilliant military commander however, I am not sure if his military tactics could be applied in a debate.

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